Hi! Sorry that this post will seem rather troll-like, I guess technically speaking it is a bit of a troll post, but basically after having similar arguments on non-specific forums I'm keen to find out if my opinions on this issue actualy have some relation to how fans of the show think of it, and I'm just generally interested in what other peoples opinions are. I'm not here to argue, just to make my point and find out what alternative views other people have.

Basically I've got rather sick of the young 'kick ass' female lead led shows, such as Buffy, Firefly and of course Dark Angel. Invariably these shows are wholly written by men which seems to lead to a rather confusing skewed impression of modern feminist ideals - seemily more geared towards geek male fantasy.

Buffy was bad to start with, with the deeply selfish and inconsiderate lead, but got quite good over time, but I've seen a few episodes of Dark Angel and that really takes the biscuit. Our Dark Angel character (Alex?) is a deeply arrogant, conceited, overwhelmingly selfish little brat. Every episode seems to revolve around some kind of serious trouble going on resulting in either 1) significant numbers of innocent people being killed; or 2) their freedom-fighting underground operation being compromised, or both, and then her ever suffering and frankly pathetic boyfriend type (who also appears to be twice her age) does something to upset her, like consider saving the innocent people over having dinner with her, and ends up with him having to grovel to her to step in and do her thing and save people or not compromise their organisation, and then finally when things do get sorted then have to thank her profusely and apologise for being such an arse for not considering her petty feelings over saving humanity.

A conversation on the episode I saw last night summed it up, where our lead explains that her relationship with the boyfriend is 'too intense', and its difficult for them to stay together. No - its because you are a clearly, deeply sociopathic, stuck up little brat who is almost certainly not capable of forming a relationship with anyone.

Your thoughts?

Uh... well, first of all, I never liked Buffy.

Second, I never watched firefly.

Third, I guess I don't totally agree with you.

Here is my view of dark angel: (Max is the name of the main character)

Yes, there is probably some geek male fantasy involved here, that I concede. The modern feminist thing I have trouble with. Clearly, dark angel is still in a setting of a society ruled by men. The main character as well as her close "normal" friends all carry their own in everyday life.

In my opinion comparing it to Buffy is bad... buffy is a whole different style, not really in the sci-fi but more fantasy realm of the showbizz and targets a much younger audience in my opinion. Also, it severely lacks the political and psychological dept of Dark angel.

First notable thing: genetic engeneering and cloning is at the core of the show. Both ethical debates that are raging and will for a while still. It exploits the concept of how we plan on dealing with any kind of clone or genetically engeneered being, shows a possible humane side to it as well as the societal fear that could spur similar to past racial issues. That is the main concept of this show and if you watch season 2, you will see society's reaction further developped.

What you characterize as being sociopathic fear of a relationship (or whatever), it is simply explained by the past and present of the main character. And considering her past, it is not very surprising someone would act like that.

The thing about "world issues" VS "personal issues" you bring up, I would say is a valuable asset to the movie simply because it demonstrates how, given your personal past and present situation, it is very hard to focus on simply saving the world. Not that clear of an answer but anyhow, she does end up saving the world most of the time. It simply has to do with the psychology of the character. If she wasn'T like that it wouldn't flow properly. The selfish/arrogance you will note dissapears as the show progresses. She grows considerably during season 1.

Without knowing Buffy very well, I do think that Dark Angel has the psychology of the characters better developped... MUCH better.

mahoobley just so much word to your whole post.



BtVS (not counting the later seasons) was far superior to Dark Angel IMHO Buffy may have been a little "it's all about me" at times, but at least she was likable and genuinely did care about her friends and played by an actress with talent, unlike Max played by Jalba.

You know season 2 for all its craptasticness is worth sticking round for, for one character Alec he made season 2 watchable

Again, opinions differ. I didn't see buffy in that way.

And again you must concur: Ackles adds the "female fantasy" to it.

I'm not saying he didn't add to the story... Just that ... I have a male perspective and you have a female perspective

I guess DA reaches me in a different way. The few eps of Buffy I watched didn't prompt me to keep watching at all. Opinions differ I guess, my first impression was that the characters weren't developped as well. They are two types of shows too, somewhat.

Welcome aboard mahoobley


Good discussion so far I would recommend to change the title though, and I hope I don't have to remind you all to keep things civil, or we'll have to close this thread.


Okay, now to the fun stuff

First, I have to say that I haven't seen Firefly, and I've watched only a few episodes of BtVS (maybe). So I can't really compare.

Second, I think you're way too much focused on Max, even if she is the lead character. I don't like her either, since I think she basically needs to grow up!, but I love Dark Angel. The show had other great characters, and it had Alec! And no, it's not because Jensen Ackles is hot (which he is). In my opinion, 'Alec' was a stroke of genius. After all, Max, with all her 'Manticore this, Manticore that' had ran. Alec stayed there. And it allow us to see how someone who was really in Manticore deals with the outside world. Before that all we had is Max and her brothers and sisters (plus a few flashbacks).

I guess that's part of why I like season 2 way better than season 1. It showed Manticore and not only Max's Manticore. It showed what happened to its different 'projects', it showed their need to hide, and ultimately it showed how people react to something that they don't understand.

Yes he did add to the "female fantasy" or whatever, but he added a hell of allot more to the show then the Max ever did in season 2 on acting talent alone, but of course it helped that Jensen had an interesting and well developed character.

First of all, I wouldn't compare Dark Angel to anything. That show was unique. There are a lot of copycats for example, Alias, and the movie Ultraviolet.

Mahoobley, you don't understand the show. I would watch the entire series from beginning to end before posting. You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Sure, there may be some "fantsy" at first, but that diminishes, and the show becomes more real(sometimes too real) as you go along.

Secondly, why does every discussion in this forum turn into a discussion on Alec. Why can't you ladies get over him? He was the worst character on the show.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree

haha

More of Alec might've been too much for me. He adds to the story for sure, but I can say the same thing about every other character. The mix of it all works very well, I like most characters in the show if not all. But both Max and Alec have both character backgrounds that are well developped through the series and the acting was pretty decent from both in my perspective. Got attached to the way they played it anyway.

My opinion is that Alec needs to grow up. He is so reckless up until the last few episodes and even then. Max has grown up considerably from season 1 to season 2 and I find her more mature than Alec in season 2 by quite a bit.


I saw Ackles in Smallville a little (didn't watch it that often), but I thought his character in that show was sort of bad, which wasn't quite the case in DA.

Because he has allot of fans on this board, and why can't you get over Max and Logan they where the worst characters on the show.



Since when does constantly moping and whining about your sucky life, and never doing anything to change it equal maturity.

in fact there has been this virus stuff between them, so it's just wrong what you say
maybe it's true thet she's unable to be in a relationship with someone knowing nothing about her, but in my opinion that's all



in the beginning she definitely is, but that changes more and more, she helps her brothers and sisters, she helps this gill couple, she even saves Lydecker's life and that's only few examples

in addition to that my opinion is that it's almost impossible to discuss with anybody about the show who does not even know the name of the main character, so I'll stop it

strangely enough you seem to know some other stuff

"Since when does constantly moping and whining about your sucky life, and never doing anything to change it equal maturity. "

lol I don`t really agree with that. She was helping people which acts as doing something... and she acts much more responsible than Alex and although she might mope a bit, her life isn't that simple. The fact that she actually thinks about it is already something.

Its a question of opinion though overall.

Nobody’s life is simple; she escaped from Manticore when she was ten. Alec was there for a hell of allot longer and had it worse then Max all the other transgenics at Manticore had it worse then Max and her siblings, she had a pretty good life compared to other people, but no she had to mope and whine because she couldn't touch the guy who she couldn't even admit to loving.

I don't agree with comparing "how hard someone's life" was... They have different histories. That's all. It's not cause she "spent less time and had it easier" that she should be all ok and fixed.... she still has lots to deal with. Besides, Alec hasn't started dealing with his past, he keeps it buried pretty deep, Max has and we see Max's feelings come out much more.

Max didn't even try to deal with anything, and Alec may have not been all that vocal about his past doesn’t mean he wasn't dealing with it.

After reading this I understand why you hate DA.
Personally, I hate calculus.

It's easy to dislike that which you cannot understand.

You make it sound like there is so many, are there much more? You're only really talking about two shows here - River never kicked any ass in Firefly, nor was she really the lead character. Although her story was told in Serenity where she definitely kicks butt.



Well, yeah. Didn't the father of one of the families [Max] stayed with growing up molest his daughter? She ran from that situation and carried the trauma.
Then Hannah proved to Max that you really can't trust any one, no matter how sincere they are. That's just two glimpses into her history, but I get how that could affect some one.
But through the series, she tries to work it out - to become a well-adjusted regular person capable of trusting relationships. That's what I saw as the core of the show. The attitude is just a firewall, a fogbank.

[quote] why can't you get over Max and Logan they where the worst characters on the show.

Max and Logan WERE the show.

If you love Alec so much, I have to question whether you're a fan of the show at all. He was a heel character. He was brought in to be hated, because he was spending more time with Max than Logan was. Oh, he's also a complete sellout, and it baffles me why any true fans of the show would want Max and Alec to end up together. Alec doesn't deserve her!

Okay, we're getting off topic.

Alec, though being mentioned on several posts (including mine), isn't the issue here. The same goes for Logan.

Also, and we already had this discussion a while back, hating or loving different characters on the show doesn't make one a non-fan, even if he or she happens to hate one of the main characters or love one of the main villains. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, and while not everyone share the same view(s), we all love Dark Angel, or otherwise we wouldn't be on this board.

Saying that, please get back on topic

honestly I don't think that's relevant ... there are just as plenty women writers out there who like writing about 'kick ass' females, as they are women who like to play them. I don't think you've read any girls magazines/comics when you were growing up (even Barbie could kick ass and she was created by a woman inspired by her daughter!)



I don't think Max was conceited to ask workaholic Logan to take a break from Eyes Only, she cared enough about him to want to show him there's more to life than acting the superhero. (There's nothing worse than having all that responsibility and feeling like you've neglected yourself.)

+1, sorta.

Alec definitely brought the beefcake to the show in a transparent effort by the creators to bring up the female viewership of a show that already had a strong appeal to the part of the population that has a double shot of X chromosomes. It's clear that the writers then had difficulty integrating him into the show, but ultimately did a good job of it by making Alec into a mirror for Max' own arrested development by showcasing Alec's selfishness & hubris. The fact that he provided competition for Logan was icing on the cake.

So while I agree that Alec's character was largely wasted in the majority of his episodes [the fact that The Berrisford Agenda episode is anyone's fave when it did nothing for plot development, & only allowed Alec's continual idiotically bubbly cheerfulness to be tarnished by soppy melancholy - Oh! Poor boy! - is a dead giveaway that they're more into the beefcake than the character], the writers did manage to finally pull his character together & integrate him into the show by the final episode [which sucked on so many levels, but hey, they had to wrap things up on short notice...]

Whew! Sorry for being so long-winded!

Anyway, as you said, Alec didn't deserve Max, & never would have gotten her had the show continued, but would have finally come around & become as much a friend to Logan as Logan was determined to be a friend to Alec. And the gals watching the show would have rejoiced, because a big part of that would have been having both Alec & Logan on-screen w/ Logan helping Alec learn to become a more rounded human being, like he'd started off w/ Max.

That's how I see it...

I don't think that he didn't deserve her. If anything, I think it was the other way around. What I'm wondering is why the issue of Max/Alec is even an issue. Did Alec ever exhibit romantic emotions when it came to Max, or vice-versa? That wasn't a love/hate realtionship. They really did dislike each other. They may have grown to respect one another, but love?

Along these lines, I don't think Alec was brought to provid a competition for Logan, as he was meant to create an allusion for one.

I am intrigued that you feel Max didn't deserve to end up w/ Alec. Yes, he's pretty, but flawed in so many ways, ways that Max, having overcome in herself, shouldn't have to be saddled with. In what way do you feel Max was unworthy of Alec?

Let me start by saying that I think a lot of views on different issues from the series probably come from liking/disliking different characters. I love Alec. I'm not sure that at this point in time I know how I feel about Max.

Why I feel Max was unworthy of Alec? Because on a lot of issues it was her way or no way. But I think what disturbs me the most is the way she interacted with people on the personal level. Logan and OC were probably the exceptions (aside from her family). I understand her difficulty to open up to people, giving the life she had, but after Manticore went down and we could see the lives others have had...

Alec may have been flawed, but he had never let others feel as if he is superior (and in many ways, he was). He never put people down. And his flaws were the results of the way he was raised. Don't forget, Season 2 was pretty close to the end of Season 1 (events-wise). It would take him time to adjust. Max was on the out for years. If one of them should have been more closed to people, it should have been Alec. What reason did he have to trust people? And yet, that wasn't the case.

You talked about "The Berrisford Agenda," and not so surprisingly, it's my favorite episode. Eyes-Only is down right now, so I can't get the quote, but think of the bar scene, between Alec and Max (best Dark Angel scene, in my opinion). OC is the one to notice Alec, and Max, even when she's finally willing to go and see what's wrong with him, has to be sarcastic. Why on Earth would you want to be mean to someone you say you want to help?

"The Berrisford Agenda," if we're already talking, because it showed Alec's vulnerable side, pretty much had to place Max on the opposite side. And Alec is a likable character. Very likable. So here he is, hurt and suffer, and Max is constantly in his face. How much likable is she in the episode?

But "The Berrisford Agenda" is a prime example. Think of when Max let Logan believe that she and Alec are together. She didn't even think of Alec, who was really hurt by the idea.

Wow, that turned out to be a long post

So, in what way do I feel Max was unworthy of Alec? The emotional one. Alec's flaws, created by years in hell, could be fixed. He would always be damaged, but who he is (as opposed the what he is), would play in his favor. Max, on the other hand, still lives in Manticore, in one way or another.