I've been toying with the idea of re-starting this thread again. First, let me explain.

This is the final season of Galactica. there are 4.13 episodes ready to air starting in April 2008. We may never get closure to BSG because of the recent WGA Strike and other factors. The political Process is starting to heat up again. No one knows where any of this is going to go. If/When Season 4.5 restarts production and airs in the future, it may come well after the new president has been sworn in.

I have not seen BSG: RAZOR yet. I've seen all the minisodes up to this point. Razor looks to re-start the "Insurrection" process all over agin from what little I have read so far in the few "reviews" that have made it to my attention.

Battlestar Galactica is a highly politicized show no matter what part of the world you live in or what time references you care to employ. People see relevancy between episodes of BSG and all manner of issues in the real world and it's unfair to limit discussions to only BSG when its apparent to anyone watching that the show transcends barriors everywhere.


that's it for now... tell your friends and watch this space.




Oh, and as an after thought edit for this opener ...

This is the OFFICIAL OFF-TOPIC BSG Forum discussions thread.


Current Events. Past Events. Past as Prologue. Fear-Mongers. Tainted-Pet-Food. Tainted-Toothpaste, Tainted Childrens Toys, High Gas Prices. Lead Posioning. Food Posioning. BEEF RECALLS. McCain. Obamma. Clinton. Romney. Paul. Huckabee. What's your beef.? Where's your beef.? National Elections and National Nightmares. Rising prices on: Medicines--Food--Health-Care--Elder-Care. Global Warming. Global Cooling. Asteroid Impacts. Volcanoes. Star Travel. Extinction. Resurrection. Death and Taxes.

China. Israel. Europe. Iraq Irak Iran. Korea -- north or south. Japan. Serbia. Kosovo, Russia. Ukraine. Indonesia. Brazil. Argentina. Chille. Mexico. Guatamala. Venezuela. Australia. New Zealand....

ALL are WELCOME

seem me if i missed your nation of choice and I'll include it

Here it is. keep it clean and respectful.



Did the colonials usher in their own destruction.? Were they already under attack long before the Cylons came along and destroyed their worlds and 20 billions of people.?

Are we also under attack and are we also ushering in our own destruction.?

How about them Mets.?

Anyone put in a YouTube video for the CNN debate.? Was it Galactica related.? Are you thinking of putting one up.? Will you be Roslin, Adama, Doc Cottle, Baltar,.... Admiral Cain.?


.

What's this.?

Not one person here wants to take a few jabs at Dubya this week.?

No one thinks Bhutto was killed because she would have actually hunted down Bin Laden whilst Dubya fiddles in D.C. ???



The elections are comng soon ... Dubya's out. He's a lame duck.

But will we have a new boss the same as the old boss.?



It's the same old theme since 1916 ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJEySrDerj0


Talking about "The Shrubs" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02z3gIg9lcQ






since the above link was deleted by youtube i offer up another.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynHpOg5ZkuQ...feature=related



there are those that do not wish us to speak. http://www.moviewavs.com/php/sounds/?id=bs...ntustospeak.mp3


.

Neil Young sings it ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_tJnj2j5kI

After the events of the past week in Pakistan and the ongoing discussions concerning their nu-clear capabilities, All Along The Watchtower comes to mind once again.



"There must be some way out of here," said the joker to the thief,
"There's too much confusion, I can't get no relief.
Businessmen, they drink my wine, plowmen dig my earth,
None of them along the line know what any of it is worth."

"No reason to get excited," the thief, he kindly spoke,
"There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke.
But you and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate,
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late."

All along the watchtower, princes kept the view
While all the women came and went, barefoot servants, too.

Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl,
Two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl.



Copyright © 1968; renewed 1996 Dwarf Music

Neil Young: Let's Impeach The President

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4kTnP5VJ1k

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2006/04/27/820/38747


I will be featuring the full album player/streams on Friday on TalkLeft when they go live. So make sure to stop back. Also stop by Neil Young's My Space site. and the Living With War blog. Now here are the lyrics:





http://neilyoung.com/lwwtoday/index.html


Recent Troop Deaths Make 2007 Deadliest Year of Iraq War for U.S.
BAGHDAD (AP) -- The U.S. military on Nov. 6 announced the deaths of six more soldiers, making 2007 the deadliest year for U.S. troops despite a recent downturn, according to an Associated Press count.
At least 853 American military personnel have died in Iraq so far this year -- the highest annual toll since the war began in March 2003, according to AP figures.
The grim milestone is despite a sharp drop in U.S. and Iraqi deaths here in recent months, after a 30,000-strong U.S. force buildup. There were 39 deaths in October, compared to 65 in September and 84 in August.







http://neilyoung.com/lwwtoday/index.html
I WAS THERE
by John Bruhns, former US Army Infantry Sergeant

I'm John Bruhns and I served in Baghdad as an army sergeant for the first year of the war. Within my first days there, I realized that so much of what I had been told--about weapons of mass destruction, connections to 9/11--was just White House spin to sell the war. image of John Bruhns from "Finding Our Voices"

I'm seeing the same thing all over again now. Even with this being the bloodiest summer for US troops in Iraq, even with Iraqi casualties running at twice the pace of last year, and even with 15 of 18 of President Bush's own benchmarks unmet, the White House is at it again. They're telling us that black is white, up is down, and things in Iraq are going just great thanks to the troop "surge."

This month Congress is going to vote on war policy for the next year--and Bush is hoping all this "progress" talk will scare Congress away from voting for withdrawal. We can't let that happen. Almost 4,000 US troops have died. We've spent half a trillion dollars in Iraq. Every day you turn on the news and more people are killed. We need Congress to stand up and fight to bring our troops home this fall.

I need your help to make sure that happens. Can you sign this petition demanding that Congress begin a fully funded redeployment and start bringing our troops home from Iraq immediately? I'll deliver your comments to Congress myself next week.

By clicking here you can add your name.

I left Iraq on February 27, 2004 and from what I hear from my friends who are still there--many on their third or fourth deployments--it's worse now than ever before. The "surge" was a failure and it's time to draw down our troops.

This president can't be trusted, his policy is reckless and it's more and more dangerous every day.

Here's what's happened in Iraq since the escalation went into effect.

Violence has gone up in Iraq. This summer is on track to be one of the bloodiest summers for Iraqis and U.S. troops, with nearly twice as many U.S. troops killed this July than the previous July. (1)

The surge has not created political stability. The central premise of the surge was that it would increase political stability. Two years after Sunnis were brought into the political transition, a Sunni bloc withdrew from the government. (2)

This week's original Government Accountability Office report showed that 15 out of 18 of Bush's own political benchmarks remain unmet. (3)

We've poured weapons into Iraq's civil war. Another Government Accountability Office report earlier this summer showed that the Pentagon lost track of nearly 200,000 weapons given to Iraqis. We distribute weapons and then they disappear and we don't know what happens to them. What we do know is that violence increases--both among Iraqi sectarian groups and against American troops. (4)

Ethnic cleansing is happening in Baghdad. The once Sunni dominated city is now dominated by Shiites. Here is a quote from the most recent Newsweek: "When Gen. David Petraeus goes before Congress next week to report on the progress of the surge, he may cite a decline in insurgent attacks in Baghdad as one marker of success. In fact, part of the reason behind the decline is how far the Shiite militias' cleansing of Baghdad has progressed: they've essentially won." (5)

As an Iraq war veteran I felt so much relief after the November of 2006 election -- I felt like we would finally end this mess and start bringing our troops home from Iraq. I've been let down a lot over this last year and I want to do everything I can to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Congress has the power to force redeployment and they have to use that power this fall. Nothing is more important to me than making sure we start bringing all our troops home--and I need your help to make sure that's what happens.

Please sign the petition today by clicking here .
Thanks for all you do.



Sources:
(1) "Diplomatic Surge for Iraq, But New Steps Require Credible Redeployment Plan for U.S. Forces," Center for American Progress, August 9, 2007 more
(2) Ibid
(3) "Report Finds Little Progress On Iraq Goals," Washington Post, August 30, 2007 more
(4) "Stabilizing Iraq," United States Goverment Accountability Office, July 2007 more
(5) "Baghdad's New Owners," Newsweek, September 10, 2007 more

How about no one wants to post because as soon as someone doesn't toe the party line a pissing contest breaks out--which drives up your post counts--and the left wing Trotsky-esque NKVD drones running this site shut down any opposition by moving the thread to a defunct board?

You had your thread with at least a dozen constant posters and you blew it. Thousands of posts and tens of thousands of views. A lot of folks just came by to watch the fireworks. Now you expect us to come back? Why should we? You've already shown those of us who don't toe your line what you'll do.

Now that traffic has dried up here due to the BSG hiatus, you want the traffic generating thread back. Not bloody likely.

While I'm not necessarily disagreeing with talonlm... why not? Let's give it another try. Hopefully, we won't be shifted to wilderness.

t-Asarlai, I'm not sure what your posts are aimed at. Aside from Bush, that is. But then, impeachment seems unlikely, isn't it? 2008 is an election year. Who has the time and energy for an impeachment process? A process which will end... when? Because Bush would be out of office anyway by the end of the year.

Btw, how much does this process cost?

Not to mention, you might know how this would start, but who knows how it will end? And in an election year, too many people have too much to lose.


Who's Dubya?

all of this bloody tree hugging hippie liberal bullshit is beyond the point of grating my last nerve. seriously get the **** over it! i'm sick of everyone whining and moaning about the idiot president we have. yes he's an idiot...he is not well spoken and he has made mistakes. however i'm thrilled he's in office because of the fact he WILL do what is needed to keep our country safe. where the **** would we be right now if gore had been in office when 9/11 happened? thinking of it terrifies me. every president we have had has been imperfect. it is impossible to satifsy every single citizen. the real kick in the teeth are all of those who don't even ****ing vote! then they clog up the internet whining and ****ing moaning about our government. quite frankly...if ya don't vote then shut the **** up!!!! and perhaps some of you liberals should pull your heads out of your asses and get a grasp on how our government works. not everything that happens in this country is the president's doing. blame congress and democrats just as equally. what are the dem's approval rating since they took over? LOL quite simply...politicians are lying sacks of **** REGARDLESS of what party they are affiliated with. the main difference is....the democrats lie about it...they promise you the moon in order to steal your vote and leave you high and dry once they get the power. whereas the republicans tell you from the start that they are gonna **** you over and aren't going to give you what you want. so many clueless people out there who vote based on what their ethnicity is or what their sexual orientation is...the party they THINK is going to give them the most. well i'm gay...and i don't share my community's belief on that. to vote based on your sexual orientation or your skin color is beyond retarded and stupid. vote based on what is going to help the COUNTRY....what will benefit the PLANET....not what or who will benefit your one specialized situation.

sorry but there is nothing that bush can be impeached for....and that is why he's spent 7 years in office and not been impeached. if you friggen liberals had a leg to stand on...then it would have been done by now. everything to you people is a friggen conspiracy theory. it really scares me that some of you are the ones who take care of people and that some of you are in a position of power.

wow and look at that....censorship. LOL nothing like taking away the 1st ammendment right? and you were whining about the president taking away civil liberties? HAHAHAHA my how i love hypocrites.

Wow.

Speaking as a tree hugging hippie commie; "in your face".
I'm sure I can find one more nerve to grate. Listen for the sound of fingernails on chalkboard friend. Wait for it..... Wait for it.....


On this point we are in agreement. Lets stop whining and moaning and worse; plotting to maximize the effects of his incompetence to win an election and fracking toss the bum out on his ass. Lets send a loud and clear message to his 'haves' and 'have mores' that we are sick of their crapulence. But the dems lack testicular fortitude of any kind.
Except maybe Edwards........ I'm gonna vote for that guy.


He's a faux religious nut-ball who put our country and our brave men and women in service in worse danger than before 9/11 (not to mention the poor civilian frackheads of Iraq). He and the men he represents have at best made the wrong decision about the future of the nations resource and energy economy and at worse plundered that future economy insuring we will be an ignorant impoverished second class country long into the future.


Safe because he would have enacted the recommendations of the 9/11 commision, something Bush never would do because he wouldn't have had the money he needs for his colonial adventure in Iraq. We would have a sane and logical plan for alternative energy development to wean us off our oil jones and create the technology needed to invest in a future where America is looked upon as a benevolent protector of the planet instead of its piratical plunderer.



I'll take Gores imperfections over Bushes anytime. Intellectual elite or retarded corporate pawn? Easy choice.

Another sentiment we share, see, even hippie liberal commie pinkos and fascist police state imperialists can find points of agreement!
We are lazy fools that won't realize the value of the government we have and exercise our franchise. Get out and vote people. Grrrrrr.
Of-course those votes better count and that process better be legit. And the cold stone truth is our electoral college system stinks and the voting process is corrupted.



Amen brother, testify to the people! Hallelujah! The way to change that is to tear up and rebuild the lobby system. Also, strictly control campaign funds and regulate and doll out media time. Take the money out of the equation and the politicians start being accountable to the masses rather than the corporations.


What a load of crapulence. Tell that to all the poor religious nutballs in this country who voted for Bush because they thought he was one of them and would turn our nation into a theocracy. Tell that to the fiscal conservatives of the Republican party ( the only thing I agree with in conservatism ) who stood by while Bush built up a debt that our grandchildren will be paying.



So your a Log Cabin Republican? I've never understood how someone can vote for a party that history shows, if let to run the country unhindered, would condemn gays to permanent second class citizenship at best....... and I shudder to think what they would do at their worst.

And that about wraps it up. We who care about these things should be thinking about whats best for the country. And for those who consider themselves citizens of the world in addition to patriots, whats best for the planet and community of nations.

I suspect that this country has never been so divided since the 60s or the Civil War.



Bush and Cheney are very impeachable by the standards of history. The problem is that the dems don't have the numbers they need to do it, lack the testicular fortitude and are having such a great time capitalizing on the cataclysmic disaster that is this presidency. Frack em all. What we need is to rebuild our democracy so that there is minority representation; the two party system is archaic and stinks of the dead horse in your emoticon.
We are so macho proud of our nation as the first industrial democratic republic, but thats like being proud of owning a Model T. It's not going to get you very far on the freeway of the modern world.



Somewhere in cuckoo land a birdhouse has lost its fluffy inhabitant.

Yawn!







No thanks!

[quote name='Ioraptor' date='Jan 1 2008, 06:26 PM' post='2929460']
[quote]What we need is to rebuild our democracy so that there is minority representation; the two party system is archaic and stinks of the dead horse in your emoticon.[/quote]

I probably shouldn't get involved in this thread. But, America is not a democracy and should not be called a democracy. We were originally a republic but somewhere along the road we decided we should stray from the constitution and become a "democracy". There is a very clear difference between the two. Democracy= Majority rules without regard for rule of law.

Clones.

This is a game nobody will play. They are all gone and will not come back. Almost all went to forums like FH, Cornell and X where they will not be slapped down like what "The man" I.E Ioraptor and T-Asarlai did to all of them. Baiting with T-Asarlai and I.O clones will not work. Kill the thread. I still lurk here but will never post anymore. I saw what happens to the posters that don't kiss up. NO THANK YOU. For me, This Forum is information only. So enjoy!

" I observe, I correct, For I am a castle"

Ur, okay. lol

'faux religious nut-ball' aside (because this isn't really the point, is it? Just another jab at your president), things kind of changed after 9/11. Or so I'd think. You were attacked (on your own land), and hence reacted. And when going into war, soldiers do tend to be under danger. What exactly did you want your country to do? Not react? And then, after the next terror attack, not react again? (and so on and so on. Because if you won't react, what's to stop the terrorists?)

Or is it not a question of the reaction, as it is how you reacted? The sending of the troops. Maybe a nuclear bomb instead of sending the military would have been better? It sure would be faster. And it's not like you haven't used the bomb before (against the last country which attacked you on your land, I believe).

First, I thought he represents the people of the United States. Isn't that the whole point? Once a president is elected, he/she represntes their country?

And wrong decision? How can you know if a decision is wrong before you took it? I would assume that no one takes wrong decision on purpose.

Don't you think this is a little presumption on your part? To know what would happen? Maybe if Gore was elcted to office he wouldn't have had the time to become the environmental activist he is now? After all, he would have an entire country to look after (not to mention, foreign policy. It would have been after 9/11).

And you think that a multi-parties system is better?

Dubya is what some folks use when referring to George W. "Dubya" Bush


LOL

I was against Dubya before I was against Dubya ...

LOL

I killed this thread because I can't handle diverse opinions.??? LOL

LOL

I'm fishing for traffic.? lol

I plan on posting pro-green and Anti-Bush (and the claimers to the throne) as I always have. I think it's about time all the other pro-greens and anti-conservatives (what a joke they are --- conservative about what???) came out of the closet and joined in.



.

I didn't get it

Anti-conservatives have always posted on this thread. Why else were we all shifted to Shaun's board?

And Pro-greens? Why? Is someone Anti-greens? People not agreeing doesn't necessarily turn them into Pro and Anti (which is often a matter of perspective).

"We've a lot to talk about. It's gonna be fun" L.C.


.

I can't figure it for the life of me ... but ...

I have never known one Republican aka "Conservative" that was a pro-environment and anti Big Business, Global-Corporate Polluter ...

maybe this year.???


.

Pro-Greens -- aka the liberal, pacific northwest tree-huggers and Owl Habitat "Conservationists" have been bitch-slapped for years ...

Now that the oceans are rising --- now that New York and Los Angelas harbours (as well as every major harbour around the world) will be flooded one day due to the impact of Global Warming it's good to embrace the tree-huggers again.





.

Define 'pro-environment' (or Anti-environment).

Without taking a stand at the moment, it's easy to be Pro (or Anti). But there's the question of cost. For example, more 'Green' at the cost of millions of unemployed. And 'Green' products sometimes cost more. Which makes them harder to buy, especially if you're unemployed.

Not to mention, some countries are going to loose a lot of money (if not they're main income), and I'm not talking about the U.S.

cool looking avatar


Keep coming back ...


.

It's way to easy to devide people that way. What? All Conservatives are Anti-environment? All Liberals are Pro? People can't be Conservatives on one matter but Liberals on another, and vice-versa?

The oceans are rising? Is it possible that it has nothing to do with us? (not the most popular position, I know). I mean, there was the Ice Age, and then the Ice melted. Was this men doing? How many humans were there at the time, anyway? Surely not enough to melt all this ice. So, while we are responsible for the well being of the Planet, maybe we tend to put oursleves in the middle a little too much.

Lyric I am interested in what publication or even simply a website you might be privy to, that represents the belief that global climate change is not upon us. I love to read those things when I can find em.
Though its getting harder and harder to find em.
Because its becoming a moot point and only the most stubborn willfully ignorant people on this planet cling to the absurd notion that global climate change isn't happening.
The argument that 'we are not sure its us' seems to be the last fading remnant of the ghost of greed that opposed the science of the thing in the first place.
The chemistry is simple, its so simple a California High School student can do the math; if they dig their head out of their video game to look that is.
Frankly, the bulk of your reply to my post is simply; "uh uh, thats not true,
because....."
'Because' what?

Its not about how popular a 'position' is Lyric, its not about your political interests or mine, its about reality and its about what happens to this world when several million people have to move to new real estate.
Its called WW3.

I don't appreciate being called ignorant simply because I may hold a different opinion.

I don't have a website. I don't base what I've posted on anything other than the possibility that we might not know everything. It's pretentious to think that we do.

And I didn't say that global climate change isn't happening. I said that it may not be about us. Or not just about us. The Ice Age was just an example. How do you explain that? The human race wasn't the destructive race it is now. It barely was. So what caused the ice melting? Something had to cause it. Something to do with global warming, perhaps?

I don't oppose science. But science usually asnwers questions which were asked. Not the ones which weren't.

For centuries people believed that Earth is flat. So? We've learned that it's wrong.

I'm not saying that the scientists are wrong. I'm just saying that we should be open to hear other opinions. Kind of Conservative not to, don't you think?

What?

I re-read this part a few times, and then went to check the first time I replied to your (first) post. The post was about 9/11, Gore and Bush. What 'Because'?

This site is helpful, providing overview of the subject;

http://www.exploratorium.edu/climate/index.html

This article provides a wonderful overview of the history of the conversation about global climate change;

http://pacinst.org/press_center/censorship/

Three minutes googling. Lets take this beyond some heated rhetoric and back it up, eh?

Try google 'Global Warming a lie'.

I'm not saying it's a lie, but come on, Io. People can back their opinions and beliefs. They have opinions and beliefs based on something. Now, whether you believe in what they back their opinions and beliefs with, is another question.

What heated rhetoric? I don't remember raising my 'voice'. Why, Io, you think we do know everything? That it is impossible that 100 years from now it will turn out that we got this entire thing wrong? That Earth isn't flat?

A few years ago this sitting president got the congress and senate to agree with his plan to rid the world of Saddam Husein for ever and somehow forgot to include the future healthcare of the tens of thousands of military personell that would suffer as a result of his little war by NOT including a increased budget spending at the Veterans Administration to cover them ???

At the same time he ran the economy into the ground by indebting this country to the Chinese government to the tune of some $$$ 1,200,000,000,000 +++ (and still counting) which then took the opportunity to export poisons into this country killing our cats and dogs, poisoning us with tainted toothpaste and endangering the future health of our children with lead-laced and poisoned toys that they can chew on?????

In the meantime he took $$$ 600,000,000,000 +++ worth of our tax dollars meant to be spent on projects that benefit the country and its future and gave that money to his rich cronies to increase jobs ( during this time i saw several dozens of people gainfully employed carrying signs that read "Eat At Joes") all the while ignoring this countries crumbling infra-structure which struke home this last year with the bridge collapse that killed lots of people. ???

At the same time he presided over a congress that wished to give all the illegal aliens in this nation amnesty for slowly sucking us dry and promised again and again to close the borders and keep out the terrorists ???



Lemme guess ... The leader of this country is not responsible for the ills of this country ???

How would you reward the president of a company such as AT&T or ALCOA or AOL-Time-Warner that lost bilions of dollars in revenue ??? send that exec to Disneyland with a $$$ 120 billion dollar severance cheque ???




Huh.?


.

Going "Green" is the new scam to depart you from your hard earned Ducketts...

I've a car that gets 34 mpg on the hiway and about 27 mpg in the city if I don't do a heavy footed "Speed Racer" style of driving.

Bought the car 12 years ago. Europeans and others have been buying fuel efficient cars for decades.

The belief that it will take hundreds of billions of Euros to research and test new methods for conserving is another myth. The ability to put an end to wasteful practises has been with us for decades.

Let's go to Brazil.

Here's a nation that ended it's dependency on the importation of oil to fuel it's economy by doing the "Let's Get Independent" act a long time ago ...

The Major oil exporters/importers will have you believe they need ten years and $$$ 1,000,000,000,000 Euros to make the USA energy independent.

What's wrong with that statement.??

Easy.

There is already a working model of a system in Brazil ... and since it already more or less works quite efficiently all that is needed is a little fine-tuning and this country can be energy independent from oil imports with-in three years, the time it takes to shift over production.

Instead of using $$$ 1,000 billion to do research that is not needed all that's needed is to take that money and put it to good use constructing the new facilities (and increase the work-force by hundreds of thousands of future tax-payers in the process)

But noooooo

Greed is good ....



.

link please,

and sure everyone has opinions, but 'forum' is all about expressing those opinions and supporting them. What weight does the opinion have? Can you support it in argument and discussion? Does the opinion have any merit or is it just bantha poodoo?
Will this just be just another angry exchange of preconceived notions (echoed across the internet in thousands of chat rooms and forums) or will it be informative and interesting?
Its up to the participants to make it something more....no?
Or you can simply say you believe something 'just because'....

What do you mean 'got the congress and senate to agree'? Were weapons aimed at their heads? They could have voted against it, couldn't they?

And just to remind you, Saddam wasn't a Saint. Far from it.


t-Asarlai, English. Please. Not all of us speak American. We barely speak English What's Ducketts?

Where did I say anything about money for research?


What for? I wasn't making any argument pro or against anything. I simply asked if it is possible that maybe, somewhere in the future, it may turn out that we were wrong. A question you didn't answer, btw.

Again, I didn't say that global climate change isn't happening. But is it wrong to question what seems to be the consensus? (The human race is bad [which may not be so far off]. We destroyed Mother Earth). Science, like any kind of research, is about asking questions. Even if, at the time, you don't have proofs. And so not having something to back a theory with doesn't make it impossible. It just makes it unable to prove at the moment.

You're blaming humanity for everything bad that happens here? Maybe you're right. But is it possible that you're wrong? After all, things has happened on this Planet way before we came here.

yes and back in the 70's and 80's it was "the coming ice age" "the depletion of the ozone layer". blah blah blah! it's the same fear mongering tactics as the liberals accuse republicans of with terrorism. it is quite interesting to see such hypocrisy going on.

you do remember the whole scientific belief in the 70's/80's that aerosol cans were killing the ozone layer? that it wasn't something that could be mended? but oddly enough you never hear anything about it anymore. as if...the "issue" just resolved itself. lol

as far as global warming...hey believe whatever you want. but for every "scientist" that claims global warming to be real there is another with proof that it isn't. al "moron" gore...ya know..the inventor of the internet HAHAHAHAHA..don't even get me started on that one...but anyway back to what i'm saying...al gore's "documentary" was challenged in court and found to have at LEAST 9 falsities. his crapfest "documentary" is no more a TRUE documentary than the **** michael moore puts out. liberals talk about republicans "spinning" things? yeah...you should be the ones pointing the finger. LOL

go back and follow the history of the planet. we've had more than one ice age...in fact we are STILL recovering from the last ice age. our climate is still on the mend and on its way back to what it WAS prior to the last ice age. i'm not sure why this is so tough for people to comprehend. our weather is cyclical....it isn't constant. just because it was 1 temp yesterday doesn't mean that every year on that day it is going to be the same. i think the most absurd thing i've read lately is people's replies to news stories about the last couple snow storms we've had here in the northeast...and they blame it on "global warming". LOL INCORRECT!! blame it on...it's the northeast in december/january...SNOW HAPPENS! our society has become so stupid and so easily manipulated that it's a joke. "al gore says it's so and therefore it must be fact". lest we forget he claims to have invented the internet??? and there are people who listen to this man???!! are you kidding me? LOL the internet was invented by the US military DECADES ago so they could have fast communication amongst their troops. decades later the internet became something used by normal citizens. gore had NOTHING to do with its creation/invention. LOL quite simply al gore is a moron and you liberals flock to him like he is jesus or something. mind numbing...really.

also note...that the temp of the sun will also affect the temp on planet earth. solar flares will affect the temp on planet earth. there are MANY variables that affect the temp on planet earth. if you go back through recorded history of the weather...you will see that MANY times since it has been recorded...we have had the same weather patterns we are having now. over 100 years ago when there was no possible way that we, as a species, could have possibly put out enough waste to affect the air...we had the same weather patterns as now. this is why we keep track..and why we have record breaking weather....things change. i know i'm repeating myself but trying to get this point across is like talking to a wall....but weather doesn't remain constant and it never has. weather is different from day to day, year to year, century to century. it's amazing that this "doom and gloom" forecasted ice age due to the depletion of the ozone layer NEVER happened...and that was "proven" to be true by numerous "scientists".

You're consistent, I'll give you that.



I'd love to quote from PMs at this point--but since they're supposed to be "Private," I won't. Honor among thieves. Suffice it to say that I believe the above quote is drivel.



Who're you trying to kid, t-A? I mean, really? There haven't been two hundred posts on this board in the last three months. THe old insurrection thread had that many in three days. You're many things, T, but one of them is not stupid. Stop acting it.



Honest profession of beliefs; something you can crow about, t-A. Perhaps you can point out exactly how we can follow your "pro-green" path without bankrupting the nation? Without abandoning Iraq in a mad rush to surrender, condemning hundreds of thousands to death? Think you've got the answers to stop the terrorists? Can you be anti-Bush without alienating half the country? You'll find it's difficult to get elected with only 2% of the voting population following your cause.

It might also be helpful to avoid this thread degnerating into a flame war if you avoid the name calling, too. I would think someone acting as a moderator would be aware of that.

I hope you're ready, t-Asarlai, because you're about to find out that this conservative is no joke.

Yes we were supposed to be heading into an ice-age before global warming changed the future climate projections. Interestingly enough (and a bit of an aside) the temperate forests are adapted to long periods of glaciation -- which churns up the minerals and makes them available for the trees.
Without those minerals the forests grow unhealthy and die. In Europe the problem of the long absence of glaciers has been partly remedied by air-drops of ground mineral dust...... Looks like because of our activity on this planet there wont be another period of glaciation anytime soon and the the temperate biomes will be in serious jeopardy.
But your unaware of simple natural science aren't you? It's all about some grand conspiracy of political factions you don't like, right?

One of the great success stories of the environmental movement. The ban on Chlorofluorocarbons
resulted in a fast recovery of the ozone layer, specifically the hole which had been growing ever larger at the pole. Unfortunately a period of increased solar activity recently set back some of the gains. I think the prophetic and important work done by environmentalists to solve this problem should be crowed from the highest towers. But they are hard working folk busy onto the next issue and sometimes lack a sense of the importance of public relations and communication with people.....well, ..... with people like you for example.

Actually thats another falsehood and if you bothered to read the article I provided above you would have thought twice before offering it.


Well you must be a whole lot smarter than Vint Cerf (one of the 'fathers of the internet') who along with a panel of fellow internet experts awarded Vice President Al Gore a lifetime achievement award for his work in making the internet what it is today. If you listened to something other than the talking heads of the extreme right you would know that the comment "I created the internet" was taken grossly out of context .... Though Al has a right to say it if he wants. We wouldn't be yakking at each other today if it weren't for good old dumb Al.


oh go ahead and get started, you got nothing but hot air

Its a waste of time arguing with you, but I hope that someone out there who reads this will think about the sides we represent and the issues being brought forth and how it impacts the future. I hope they will take a few minutes to google "Earth in the Balance" or "An Inconvenient Truth" and become more aware of the esteem with which these pieces have been received and the important information contained therein.
The time for awareness of the environment and the challenges we face is now. The time for ignorance is past.



You feel like your talking to a wall because people are ignoring you. They can read and your cherry picked version of history and science is transparent to them. But make it interesting for me please, before I do the work of digging up links to history of the internet and environmental science and all that, make it worth my while by providing some yourself that support your opinions.
I can even help you, if I wanted to cherry pick the history of the internet and focus on the military initiative I might post this article
http://www.davesite.com/webstation/net-history.shtml
Oh, oh! There is Vinton Cerf down there at the bottom, creator of TCP/IP..... who thinks Al Gore deserves a lifetime achievement award for his work creating the internet!

Hey, Io? I want my Global Warming! It's 20 outside right now--average temp for this time of year is twice that!!!

Do you have a website that explains how everyone knows the warming trend on Earth is caused solely by humans? How do you explain the other seven planets warming as well?

Link

Link

Link

Link

Not everyone thinks we're the only reason. While I'm all for cleaning things up and finding other ways to fuel our nation, I'm not for fixing things for the wrong reason. No one, as yet, as shown me anything to make me believe that the Global Warming hype is anything more than that--a tool to beat down anyone who disagrees. Perhaps if they hadn't started off with the absolutist "it's America's fault for not signing Kyoto?" That it's all America's fault? That we're all gonna die by next year unless we stop using oil?

Perhaps an honest, scientific examination of all the facts are in order? Without politics? That last time I saw science this involved with politics, the Nazis were practicing racial superiority theories and designing their 'master race.'

Thank you, thank you, thank you. And I'm not getting into the question of whether it's right or wrong.

We accept that seasons change. It's part of the cycle of life. Life and death? Also part of life. But to even think that maybe global climate change is part of the same cycle? No. That's sacrilegious.

'Green' seems to have turned into the new popular religion. And like any other religion, it can be good or bad, depends on what its followers take from it and how they use it. Fundamentalism included.


Assuming I didn't miss any sub-sarcasm here and you're serious, does that mean that we were wrong? As in 'we thought we were right, but we were wrong' ? But now, now we are right? Like, definitely right? No chance that we might be wrong again?

Why the need to go for conspiracies?

I'm confused. Does this mean that despite our efforts, the universe is working against us?

And you accuse me in 'uh uh, thats not true, because.....' ? The environmentalists work hard on how to save Earth but kind of forget to, eh, save Earth? Because... "they are hard working folk busy onto the next issue and sometimes lack a sense of the importance of public relations and communication" ? Come on, Io. You can do better then 'we find a way to save Earth, but we'll just keep it to ourselves'. What? Not important enough?

Not to mention you just made (some?) environmentalists sound like complete 'social' idiots with zero understanding in how the world works. Means to an end.

Kind of missionary...

You two know each other?

Io, I have a question. The 'link, please' part in your posts. Not that I'm not all for backing things up, find references and so on, but what happened to free thinking? To the ability to be able to base things on simply think? To say 'well, maybe I can't prove it, but it just makes sense. And maybe, just maybe, one day a proof will be found' ?

I explained that above, I'm not going to waste a lot of time repeating myself (not that I don't like to type, but I'm hell of busy these days). We can have a very simplistic debate on these subjects or we can kick it up a notch and educate each other on our positions. If all you got is; "because I say so" then I'm off to my reading, video games and volunteer job (not necessarily in that order ).



This brings up another interesting aspect of debate. Its called 'framing'. The frame is the perspective forced by the shape of the rhetoric. Changing that frame is a tactic in debate. I'm doing it now by changing the conversation, steering it away from your sarcastic attack on environmentalists towards what constitutes the substance of a debate.
Another way to change the frame is to purposefully distort or 'misunderstand' the opponents statements.

What you just did was offer the statement (one I never opined) that the scientists who studied the effect of CFs on the ozone layer (and from those studies recommended a course of action to prevent those effects) of being motivated primarily from a sense of "saving the Earth". Regardless of whether they acted from such a grandiose plan, they do in fact work very hard
on the science they are engaged in. They are the people who know the most about that subject and its very probable that their opinions are much better informed than yours or mine. In a successful technological society its much more likely that the knowledge of people who study a subject in depth is closer to reality than the opinions of people who can't be bothered to spend ten minutes reading web pages or pick up a science magazine every once in awhile. Or who learn whats laughably called science from political sources that distort the truth to suit their agenda (see article above, don't comment till you read it please).

My lamentation about science workers is that they are not as savvy politically as they should be. Part of that is the fault of the structure of the institutions they work in and part of that is that they are just damn busy people. They are often social idiots........ just as I might be perceived to be. I'm certain that being perceived as a smart ass on these subjects does little to help convince people to go read themselves on these matters. But there it is, its frustrating to watch as humanity drowns in stupidity, and frustration makes one sarcastic at times. There is also a whole lot of despair on the subject. Millions of people (optimistically) are going to suffer horribly because of the richest nations citizens stupidity and selfishness..... Thats a tragedy.

People, regardless of how you feel about the participants in this debate, go read about this stuff yourself. And for Chrissakes don't go to purely political sites, go to science sites, go to NASA or Scientific American or New Scientist etc etc. Global climate change isn't some eight year old girl crying because a bee stung her, its something to wake up and pay attention to NOW.

What talonm and lyric are talking about is but a small facet of how climate works over time. Climate is cyclical but what scientists have proven beyond doubt is that we are changing that process at a pace that the natural world cannot cope with. We are living during an extinction event of speed and scope never seen before on this planet. The only other comparable event took place over a period hundreds of thousands of years, not two hundred.....

More on this later, I have to go to work, I promise to read talonms links when I get home and post a reply.
But you probably wont like it

What I especially love about your posts, Io, is the amount of arrogance which coming off of them in waves.

I missed this thread

Who's twisting who's words now?

Just out of interest, what kind of dabate did you have in mind? Posting links, so we can read yours and you can read ours? I mean, I assume that neither of us here is environmental scientist, and so we wouldn't know the subject in depth. So where is the debate, exactly? One side will say that X said "1", and the other side that Y said "2" ? And how will we know who's right?

My sarcastic attack on environmentalists? Did you actually read my post, Io?

What part didn't I understand? The use of the stigma which is being associated with scientists? That they are all about research, but not so much about publicity?

This is the 21st Century.

To quote you, "Another way to change the frame is to purposefully distort or 'misunderstand' the opponents statements."

My comments had nothing to do with the scientists, Io, and I'm guessing you know that.

But I don't treat them like Gods. Not a lot of things in the world are axiom, and science, any kind of science, is based on the ability to ask questions, to find new things (or to have new understanding on old things)... to doubt. Dismiss it all you want, Io (what are you reading, if I may ask?), but it is okay to ask questions. That's how science progresses.

Well, they did get the word out, didn't they? So it looks like they do know what they are doing.

Plus, to do a research, you need funding. And while some will give money for the sake of knowledge alone, others will want to see results and practical usage.


No one here said anything about global climate change not happening, btw, but don't let the facts stop you. You go right ahead with your manifesto. I have to say, thought, that the more I read your posts, the more I think 'Fundamentalism religion', with every bit of bad connotation that comes with it.

Speaking of 'Fundamentalism religion'... The largest suppliers of oil are the same countries who want to wipe my country of the map and kill everyone that I know and love. Not in the global-warming-100-years-from-now sense, but right now. So I'm all forward cutting the usage of oil. To 0. More than that, nuclear reactors? Not clean enough either. They have the potential to be modified into more than just energy suppliers.

How do you feel about an entire region covered with nuclear fallout? That would kind of go against the Green agenda, wouldn't it?

And so I'm all for Solar usage. Over here we have something like 300 days of Sun a year (the seasons? we've heard about 4, but...). It's a complete waste not to put it into use.

So you see, Io, I have more reasons than you to go Green.

Like talonlm, I'm all for cleaning things up. Not agreeing with you and not taking everything for its face value doesn't automatically put one against you. I can be Pro-Green without buying everything that environmentalists activists say (activists, not scientists). And I won't stop thinking that maybe there are others answers just because it doesn't fit your Green picture. Peopel don't come in models. Stop trying to push us into ones.

well isn't that convenient? the ozone layer just healed itself? it was "something that can never be repaired"....something that can never heal...but mysteriously the hole healed itself? LOL i love how people double-talk. quite simply it goes to prove that the whole BS of the 70's/80's was just that...BS! and in 20 years THIS will be bedunked and we'll be onto another "global cause". afterall the "scientists" need to justify what they do somehow and have to justify their grants somehow. it's funny that the "scientists" who claim global warming to be fact are those who wrote the software and entered the variables into the program in order to get the result they wanted. alter some of those variables to REAL WORLD values...see how the outcoming data changes.
i'm with lyric and talon....yeah we need to be a cleaner species and we need to take care of our surroundings better. but this fear mongering way of going about it is pure crap. next...people like you...will be strapping on bombs and going to the local gas station and threatening to blow it up if people don't follow your demands and give up oil. you do see how ludicrous you sound right? oh and by the way...i LOVE my sports car! my sports car that gets around 16mpg. and i'll continue to love it and drive it regardless of what you or any of your zealot buddies have to say. =)
the point about provide you links? sorry not my job. if you wanna find it then look for it. and you do know..that just because it is in print doesn't make it fact...right? you do know that not everything on the internet is reliable and factual...right? lol or are you one of "those" who believes anything you read? oh wait...you are..nevermind. lol

talonm said;

From the first link



the second link is dead

from the third link



the last link is Christian blogger, sorry I don't go there.....

So from this you conclude that mans hand in global warming is bunk and environmentalists are NAZIs? Uh, okay.


Well I guess its done as far as I'm concerned. Not much to talk about and I sure as heck don't want to see the same tired rhetoric replayed over and over like last year.
And Lyric, sorry you don't like it when someone uses the same tone and language being used against him; 'sticks and stones' my friend. Like t-Asarlai said, we greens have been getting bitch slapped for quite some time now and we are enjoying giving some back to ya.

Remember "its not enough to survive, we must be worthy of survival".

Peace.

You think you and I have been using the same language? I tend to disagree. But if I offended you in any way, I apologize.

You enjoy it?

What, no link? Next!



I defy you to find something in my post that denies global warming. I said I wanted proof that we are the sole cause. The main argument I have with the eco-nazis--used here to denote someone so wholly entrenched in their beliefs they are willing to deny fact and willing to undertake any task their leader demands of them--is that the only reason for global warming is the use of oil, and the similarly fanatical belief that America is the only nation to blame for it.

I know that global warming is happening, I don't argue that issue. It is fact, it is here, and it's effecting everything around us.

I believe nothing we can do is going to change this global warming. It's a natural event, much the same as a volcano, flood, earthquake or tsunami, caused by a combination of orbital deviations and increased solar activity. Here's a link showing increased temperatures on Pluto from MIT. Here's one for Mars.

The Al Gore groupies would have us jump around holding conferences and pointing fingers at conservatives rather than preparing ourselves. That same crowd would have you belief the human race will die out because of global warming. That same crowd would have you believe that conservatives want nothing more that to make money while the Earth burns.



And that's the primary reason I say that man-caused "global climate change" is a political issue. Science, Io, is never static. Liberals have taken a worthy cause, enviromentalism, one wrongly ignored by conservatives, fashion it into a club, and used it to try and beat their way into political power. By using fear tactics--"The planet has a fever!"--and trying to paint conservatives as power-mad monsters, they have reveals the subject for what it has become--a political tool.

Interesting to note: now that the war is proceeding well, there are no cries for mass surrender, only further cries of doom and gloom from the liberals. It's all politics, plain and simple.



Really? Other than taking a swipe at t-A for shuttering this thread, where I have 'bitch slapped' anyone? If I'm not too far off the mark, I just asked t-A to stop his name-calling. Neither Lyric nor I have resorted to name calling. People like this "quityerbithen" are always out there; liberal and conservative alike. I would remind you of Mike31C and of El Jimbo, opposite as can be, but similar in action. I would think you as an adult could rise above that sort of thing.

Or is it simply that you believe liberals are so much better that your fellow conservative citizens deserve no respect?



Nice sentiment. Try it on a battlefield someday and see how long you follow it.

For several years now the Bushies have been hinting that any person, be they citizen or elected official, that questions this administrations foreign policies in regards to waging war against terrorists is suspect of not only being anti-american but quite possibly a traitor. The Bushies made it clear from the beginning that any politician that expressed or hinted that the Bush War Machine might be wrong maybe shouldn't be re-elected in 2004.

The Closeted-Politicos, therefore, quietly aquiessed til the time was right and with public opinion now at its lowest ever for a sitting presidency and its policies, it is okay to be an american again and do what we are supposed to do in a free society and again question the sanity of the elected officials without fear of reprisals from the government.




Google and Urban Dictionary is your best friends. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ducketts

Since I have to look up words used by the Brits all the time I've found it much more interesting and enlightening to actually look thee things up.

It's not a "My Pro-Green" policies i wish anyone to follow ...

But just to be sure that you and everyone understands what I mean by each individual being responsible for slowing down the destruction of Starship Earth ...

Recycle ...

a 19" flat-screen monitor was recently saved from the scrap heap. I need one so I took it in and gave it a home. Upon hooking it up I found out why it was on the scrap heap. The screen was cracked internally on the right side. I took the time to write to the manufacturer and call them and for less than 20% of the cost of a new, comparable $275.00 (+ 10% tax outlay ) a new screen will be installed and the old, damaged one will be recycled.

How much that reduces my "Carbon Footprint" i do not know.

But since most of my life has been dedicated to recycling everything as much as possible ...


.

Ahem ...

Here we go with an example of sorts on how we have impacted the global climate change to a point where a species can go extinct in a single season.

Monarch Butterflies.

They love to travel between Mexico and the USA/Canada every year.

They go thru several generations on their trek north each year generating off-spring several times. On their trip back to Mexico they must make the journey with-in the current generational time-span or they don't get to reproduce and send their children northward in the following spring.


Recently, the final generation made it home to their forests in Mexico to renew their life-cycle. All was going well until a very serious chill hit their forests killing them off by the millions as I remember.

It seems in the aftermath that it was discovered that recent Tree-Harvesting in the vacinity of their ancestral homes reduced the "Buffer Barrior" that the forests offered against a killing frost because those forests had been cut back so thinly that the forests offered very little protection against the harsh and chilling winds that were blowing thru un-impeded.

In other words, Human activity may nearly have wiped out the whole of the species not because they were unaware of their impact but because they were ignorant of the worst-case-scenario their actions would cause.


Lesson to learn:

The natural cycle of this planet is one of birth and death on a rotating basis and you just never know when human activity once thought to be benign can instead turn quite malignant if given just a slight push. In the past tens of thousands of years any cold snaps that blew in the direction of mexico and the butterflies was tempered by the existing buffer.











.

Ahhhh but you see ... the sky is falling ....

And the best way to reverse our coming extinction is to get rid of the people that say it ain't happening -- ie the Greedy Bestards that created this climate of "Do Nothing til we are staring at deaths face and knocking on Heaven's Door" -- and that seems to mostly include the SET A of politicos that just happen to be ** Ahem --- Cough, Cough ** Conservatives "In Name Only" or as I am wont to call them these days CINO's lol

Long Live Planet Earth ...

Sacrifice a Greedy, Self-Serving, Global-Capitalist, Neo-Con to the dust-heap of history by doing your part and vote them all out of office.

Let the healing begin.


.

And again, we get back to proof. I don't believe Al Gore for an instant. I don't think he's in it for anything other than the chance at fame and popularity again. Many piece of his "documentary" have already been debunked.

I want to know how we understand, unequivocally, that this is a man-generated event, and that natural forces have nothing to do with it. If it is not a solely man generated event, then how and why should we act against it, assuming we could?

Time and time again I've heard how this hurricane season is going to be worse than the last, and that things won't get better until we've given up all our power generation systems and gone back to subsitance farming. The last two hurricane have been busts. Just like they two after Andrew blew through Miami. Just like the three after Hugo took out South Carolina. Just like the same cycle that has been working the same way for the last one hundred years of recorded hurricane-related history.

It's the same with the ozone layer and the coming ice age of the 70s, as was pointed out by quityerbitchen. The science isn't there to support the theory that Global Warming is a solely man-caused event.



What good does this foolish fear mongering do? Where does it lead? How does panicking an uneducated population improve our chances of survival?

All that nonsense does is generate votes for SET B politicos, who are scrambling for power since they were ousted in 2000. The are all politicians, and they almost all have only one thing in mind--getting into power. Both sides are self-serving! All you'll manage, talking like that, is to jump from the frying pan into the fire.

Why not eliminate this bullshit from the discussion? Had not the fear-monger politcal nonsense been injected in the first place, something might have actually been accomplished to improve the situation. People who continue to throw around that bullshit are just as guilty as the "neo-cons."



Yes, well, the liberal hippie crowd is really making things better, aren't they? Jumped up and grabbed control of Congress and did only one thing--stopped any progress from taking place. Brilliant.



Yeah, putting in a two-bit political hack like Hillary will really improve things. Nothing can go wrong with that plan.



Certainly. But remember that this is a two way street, t-A. You can't have it all your way.

Americans will not tolerate a loser

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyUX6wV1lBQ&NR=1



LOL

The Davos Question: Future of Global Warming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTNJ2khwgvc

Global warming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov6GPTB4Tio

About This Video Some pictures about global warming and some pic... (more)
Added: December 01, 2006
Some pictures about global warming and some pictures expressing global warming.

Please don't rant saying that Global Warming doesn't exist. One way or the other, the Earth is getting warmer.



Global Warming: Point of No Return?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FVZSUsT-Ws

James Lovelock says Global Warming is now at point of no return. Other top climate scientists are more hopeful but say we only have less than 10 years before it's irreversible and time is running out. Bush Administrations been accused of asking top climate scientists at NASA to STOP
speaking out about the climate crisis and of
altering scientific journals reporting on the phenomenon. We all need to speak up NOW or the Human Race will join the MILLIONS of other Species that will be extinct by 2050 from Global Warming.

http://www.climatecrisis.net
http://www.greatemergence.blogspot.com







http://www.youtube.com/user/sxephil

.

Well, I have to admit, you've suuprised me. I never thought I'd a pro-war youtube link from you, never mind one this well done.



I added the bold text and the underline, and the italics. Read what I wrote. None of your links even comes close to refuting what I said.

Global warming is real, it is happening, and I'm not denying that. I'm saying that whatever caused it, it ain't man. We may have an impact, but, at best, it's a small one. This is a natural phenomenon, and we'd better stop dicking around pointing fingers at the "uber-capitalist neo cons" and get ready for it. It won't destroy us--in spite of it all, we are too smart to let that happen--but it isn't going to be fun for us, either. Finding someone to blame is a child's game. Global warming isn't.