Finally, Visitor shared some insight on her character Dr. Elizabeth Renfro on the short-lived Fox series "Dark Angel," saying series creator James Cameron had more in mind for the show's villain.

"They were so angry at me because I finally said no, I can't move to Vancouver," Visitor said of the show's producers. "I can't keep flying to Vancouver from New York. I have two little boys, and I can't do it anymore.

"When she got killed, she got shot, and beat up, and burned. And there was no DNA that could ever come back. Ever. Everything was just destroyed."

If she had stayed?

"When I had a meeting with [Cameron prior to leaving the show], he told me that this character is actually probably around 100," Visitor said. "What she's after is the DNA because it's the fountain of youth, and she's always injecting herself. That never came out, but that was really interesting. If I had stayed, maybe it would've come out."

The article keeps falling on me when I try to get o the second page, so thank you for that, lostinspace

Around 100? Intriguing. My first thought was that we would have been introduced to a new race (for lack of a better word) : We had the humans, Manticore, the Breeding Cult... What if she knew Sandman on a whole different level?

Well remember she told Max to find Sandman.

But we know nearly nothing about Sandman. We know of the Breeding Cult, we know of Manticore, and now, we know of a 100 year old woman, who looks a lot younger? What if Sandman was this meta-age person? (I'm not even sure if person is the right word to use here)

What I wanted to say when I talked about Renfro knowing Sandman on a whole different level, is that maybe she didn't know him as Manticore (not at first), but as part of another... experiment? that he did (or doing). Renfro, the Breeding Cult, Manticore, they are all about DNA (manipulating DNA), and Sandman seems to be connected to them all. And then he just fall from the face of the earth?

According to the Commentary on the last episode, they wanted to have Sandman hiding in plain site, possibly even keeping an eye on Max.

I do think you are right about there being a connection with Renfro to Sandman... but I don't think that connection leads to the breeding cult, much like I first thought when I watched the show during first run.

Another interesting queston.... If Renfro were shooting up with Manitcore DNA from the X series... did she inject herself with Max's DNA? She did have her there for three months.

They were speculating about that on the commentary... at worst he would just be a homless guy we had seen before.

Well I think your right that Renfro knew nothing about the breeding cult. Even with Sandman the common connection between the two groups. Even if she was in direct contact with Sandman, I don't think he would bring up the past especally if it ment that it could put him back on the cults radar. I think there is more discussion here as we both think more on this.

What would she be gaining from doing it? (As we don't know about her DNA)

It probably would be part of keeping her young...it was in another commentary that she was doing that with the other X-5 DNA's to keep her young.

They were speculating about that on the commentary... at worst he would just be a homless guy we had seen before.

Well I think your right that Renfro knew nothing about the breeding cult. Even with Sandman the common connection between the two groups. Even if she was in direct contact with Sandman, I don't think he would bring up the past especally if it ment that it could put him back on the cults radar. I think there is more discussion here as we both think more on this.

But then, what had she done prior to Manticore? She looks in her 40s-50s? The X5s were operational for, what? 20-30 years? (closer to 20, I'd assume) That would bring us to 60-80. Around 100 may suggest over 100. So the way I see it, we're at least 20 years short. Something is missing, in my opinion.

So sorry. I missed the other answers





In the commenatary Richard Gunn (a.k.a Sketchy) gave a possible suggestion.... not that I agree with it.... but he said.... Normal. Of course most of the charactors said that Sketchy was an Idiot though.... But they didn't talk about any other specific people. If it were Joshua... it would explain why he has no barcode. But why would he experiment on himself? I am not sure if he could be Sandman, because if he were, wouldn't he have helped Max more with the virus papers? Knowing how much his "favorite, special" one cares for Logan. But then again, he left in a hurry... and what is the best way to hide... change your appearance. He would be a great genetisist... (Just wondering out loud here... ) if maybe there were some side effects to doing this. Maybe he can only remember his life as Sandman as someone else's (father). Something he didn't plan on maybe. But then I don't see him working at Terminal City looking like a Dog/Man. Then there is Max finding him in the Basement of Manicore. He would have had to break back in. Some parts seem to fix, but others don't...hmmm will have to think on this more.


I think that her being in contact with Sandman is a big 'If'. If she was in contact with him, she could have just given the info to Max, instead of sending her on a hunt to find him.

Well Sandman left Manicore when the Government took over... In the episode where Joshua and Max found Sandmans home, Max had a flashback to when she was younger.... I am guessing 3 or 4 years old maybe 5.... He left in a hurry, possibly not long after this flashback. Max was born/made in 2000, the show is in 2020... That could take another possible 15 years off the 20
You suggested that possibly the connection to Sandman with Renfro was another experiment, that could have taken place when he was working in Terminal City (or what ever it's name was before the accident) after Manicore. According to "CJ" in the second to last episode in S2 Sandman went there after Manicore.

In the commenatary Richard Gunn (a.k.a Sketchy) gave a possible suggestion.... not that I agree with it.... but he said.... Normal. Of course most of the charactors said that Sketchy was an Idiot though.... But they didn't talk about any other specific people. If it were Joshua... it would explain why he has no barcode. But why would he experiment on himself? I am not sure if he could be Sandman, because if he were, wouldn't he have helped Max more with the virus papers? Knowing how much his "favorite, special" one cares for Logan. But then again, he left in a hurry... and what is the best way to hide... change your appearance. He would be a great genetisist... (Just wondering out loud here... ) if maybe there were some side effects to doing this. Maybe he can only remember his life as Sandman as someone else's (father). Something he didn't plan on maybe. But then I don't see him working at Terminal City looking like a Dog/Man. Then there is Max finding him in the Basement of Manicore. He would have had to break back in. Some parts seem to fix, but others don't...hmmm will have to think on this more.

True, but she was going to bring Max to somebody, she said that on the phone. Maybe this group is looking for Sandman too. Maybe the experiment of using Trans-genic DNA or even regular DNA to extend life has a larger group than just Renfro... Interesting in that phone call she specificall said, "She is the one we've been looking for". Maybe because her "Perfect" DNA would keep them younger longer or possibly forever.

(Sorry I am having trouble with doing multiple quotes in one post)

I'm not sure I follow you. What I meant to say is that if Renfro used X5s' DNA, she couldn't have done it for more than 20-30 years. She looks 40-50, so I would assume it's the age she was when she has started using the anti-aging DNAs (I can't think of a better term right now). So her real age, according to those assumption, is around 60-80. Not 100.

But if her real age is around 100, then for about 20 years she used something else to keep herself young. The question is, what, and why couldn't she keep on using it?

Ok, just for a sec lets say Joshua is father, that works out with him being able to hide at manticore for so long, and his protective nature with Max. But remember after he left Manticore, he went to work at "Terminal City" at the genetics lab, according to CJ. Now he left there as well, in May of 08 after 6 mo of non payment on his home. He could have added some K-9 DNA to his own to hide... and sneek back in to Manticore, thus Joshua could be "father". But again I think even if he couldn't tell max why, he could have translated her runes. But to agree with you Joshua does seem the most likely of all the charactors we have met.


Which is even more confusing. She could have sent Max to the group. Max wouldn't have known if it's really Sandman, until it was too late.

No worries

Maybe that's the connection with Sandman that we are missing... Perhaps the experiment we spoke of before.

Ok, just for a sec lets say Joshua is father, that works out with him being able to hide at manticore for so long, and his protective nature with Max. But remember after he left Manticore, he went to work at "Terminal City" at the genetics lab, according to CJ. Now he left there as well, in May of 08 after 6 mo of non payment on his home. He could have added some K-9 DNA to his own to hide... and sneek back in to Manticore, thus Joshua could be "father". But again I think even if he couldn't tell max why, he could have translated her runes. But to agree with you Joshua does seem the most likely of all the charactors we have met.

Which is confusing... If they have been looking for her for so long, what did they want her for? and Good Guys or Bad guys? Renfro comes across as a bad guy, but perhaps that was just her agenda, and her drive to find Max. But we don't know if she were Good or Bad. Or her group.

Good thinking




***Ok, but then what about Max's flashback to when she was a child? Sandman picked her up and said something about her being his "special one" I know we didn't see his face, but he also didn't really sound like Joshua. But given the scope of this show we know that anything is possible when it comes to genetics... super G.I. Joe's, Killer Virus's, mutants designed for very specific missions... why not have the creator of them all already having k-9 DNA somehow.***


I agree. Interesting.

***Ok, but then what about Max's flashback to when she was a child? Sandman picked her up and said something about her being his "special one" I know we didn't see his face, but he also didn't really sound like Joshua. But given the scope of this show we know that anything is possible when it comes to genetics... super G.I. Joe's, Killer Virus's, mutants designed for very specific missions... why not have the creator of them all already having k-9 DNA somehow.***

***Perhaps her perfectly coded base pairs would keep that group from having to keep injecting themselves with any other DNA? Maybe it would keep them young forever without having to inject any more?***

Well he did work in the field of genetics... if he could create people with advanced abilities, he may have been able to move a few things around to make a physical change.... it's possible anyway.


'Take one shot, live forever' ? In this case, would they need her, or just a sample from her DNA, one that they could reproduct?

Or maybe it's all about the prophecy.

Actually I never heard the whole prophecy, other than what Logan said in the final episode... is there more on this somewhere? All I know is that when it came down to it, that Max would save all ov us "Normals".....

"When the shroud of death covers the face of the earth, the one whose power is hidden will deliver the helpless."

The entire prophecy was vague to me when I wrote the post, so I went back to check:

Well the commentary on the final episode said that what was coming... was the "Comet". This comet returns every 10,000 years and kills off everyone that doesn't have specific DNA seqences. So I would guess that when the comet passes around earth again "the BIG Plan" was that eveyone that wasn't part of the cult would die, and they would take over the world... except Sandman made Max! Max's blood somehow will save the rest of us.

But your right, what Renfro was after was never addressed, and if her group ,( or her and who ever was on the other end of the phone), didn't know about the cult what could they have been looking for Max for? Being DNA "junkies" ,(for lack of a better term), could it be as simple as looking for the perfect DNA? Or do you think that it was more complicated...it could really go either way.

I haven't seen the DVDs. Why does a Comet have to do with DNAs? Unless Max's DNA guarantee survival in the post-Comet world?

I'm lost here

Ok, well if you get to watch the final episode with commentary the producers were talking about the breeding cult and how third season would explain more about what they were all about, and how they had come down through the last ten thousand years. Well if you go all the way back before the pyrimids there was this comet that passed by earth. Almost all the population of the earth died... and somehow they decided to save the DNA of the survivors by creating this breeding cult. The pyrimids were actually created to hold the DNA of these survivors and the cult was committed to making sure that when this comet returned in ten thousand years, (I am not sure how they knew it would return??? but ok...somehow they do). So Ten thousand years later Ames and his Breeding cult buddys are waiting for this event to happen, so they can take over the whole world, which do you remember the night he was standing outside chanting at the metor shower? The cult was in full gear that night too. Well this shower happens only once a year and is part of the count down before the return of this comet. Do you remember when Ames took his brother CJ back to the cult's prison for their mentally ill... Ames walks to the window and looks out and sees that there is a second metor shower? That somehow signifies the comets imminant return. Thats why his father "Sandman" created the trans-genics originally to fight back against the cult when the time comes with Max... all of the other trans-genics were the hard work to create Max, the "one" who would save the world according to the prophecy. Her blood would make normal people immune to the effects of the comet. But unfourtionately the Government stepped in and took over. He left in a hurry, and had to leave Max before he could teach her how to read the runes on her skin. The producers discuss this all through that final episode. But because season three was never picked up, none of this was made known until the DVD's came out. ( I hope I summerized this well. )

Taking the prophecy into account, simply being DNA "junkies" seems... weak? Two groups, that we know of, are after Max, and it's merely a coincidence?

Ok, well if you get to watch the final episode with commentary the producers were talking about the breeding cult and how third season would explain more about what they were all about, and how they had come down through the last ten thousand years. Well if you go all the way back before the pyrimids there was this comet that passed by earth. Almost all the population of the earth died... and somehow they decided to save the DNA of the survivors by creating this breeding cult. The pyrimids were actually created to hold the DNA of these survivors and the cult was committed to making sure that when this comet returned in ten thousand years, (I am not sure how they knew it would return??? but ok...somehow they do). So Ten thousand years later Ames and his Breeding cult buddys are waiting for this event to happen, so they can take over the whole world, which do you remember the night he was standing outside chanting at the metor shower? The cult was in full gear that night too. Well this shower happens only once a year and is part of the count down before the return of this comet. Do you remember when Ames took his brother CJ back to the cult's prison for their mentally ill... Ames walks to the window and looks out and sees that there is a second metor shower? That somehow signifies the comets imminant return. Thats why his father "Sandman" created the trans-genics originally to fight back against the cult when the time comes with Max... all of the other trans-genics were the hard work to create Max, the "one" who would save the world according to the prophecy. Her blood would make normal people immune to the effects of the comet. But unfourtionately the Government stepped in and took over. He left in a hurry, and had to leave Max before he could teach her how to read the runes on her skin. The producers discuss this all through that final episode. But because season three was never picked up, none of this was made known until the DVD's came out. ( I hope I summerized this well. )

I don't think so, but the question is do they know about each other... we guess pretty well to believe that Renfro and her group has no idea about the breeding cult... but there also was no indication that the breeding cult knew about Renfro's group. I wonder if there was a plot point that we never got to see finished in what would have been the third season. Renfro's group the DNA "junkies" don't know about the prophecy ... that's something that Ames found out after capturing Max. Renfro had Max before the runes appeared. Unless they are in contact with Sandman they wouldn't know about the prophecy. So I think that Renfro's group wanted something else. Unless of course there is a stronger connection with Sandman.

Now I'm even more confused. The only reason the transgenics were created was to hold off the breeding cut until Max would be able to have the entire population immune? And in a timeline of 10,000 years, the savior was found 20 years before the catastrophe? Too easy. And if Sandman was a DNA expert, he could have simply targeted the breeding cult DNA. Just as Manticore did to Logan later on.





I didn't mean he made the trans-genics to hold them off... let me see if I can explain. Do you remember back to science class in school, when they went over brown haired people and blonde haired people, and how some gene's are dominant and some are ressesive? Well even though Blonde hair is a dominant gene, you still out of like 12 possible blonde haired children, will only get 4-5 of those childeren blonde haired... not exactly half even. Thats why he used computers. He didn't sit down and say I am going to make Max. He sat down and said this is the traits, and genes I want this individual to have...

An even better example of genetics is Jurassic Park... they had the DNA sequences of the Dinosars, however there were some "Gaps" in the sequences... so they decided to use frog DNA to cover those gaps, and they specifically used "female" frog DNA as to not produce a Male dinosar. Well low and behold frog DNA can flip genders. No reason why... it just can. Thats why there are so many trans-genics... it takes trial and error to get what you are working for. So I think He left the Breeding Cult and was not happy with them when he left. So he decided to wreak their plan.

By creating someone who's DNA was also immune to the effects of the Comet. Somehow he wanted to find a way to save the rest of humanity... like CJ his son. Sandman had been part of the cult... so I think he passed the snake blood test. But CJ said that Sandman knew CJ's DNA wouldn't. So he wanted not only to save his son but eveyone who is normal. Of course this would also tick off his former breeder buddies. Yes he could have targeted them, but did he have access to their DNA? Maybe, I am sure he could have found something nasty to tie the DNA to to kill them.. but he decided to just interfere with their plans which I think hurts the cult more.






But, again, two groups after the same girl, and it's just a coincidence?

By creating someone who's DNA was also immune to the effects of the Comet. Somehow he wanted to find a way to save the rest of humanity... like CJ his son. Sandman had been part of the cult... so I think he passed the snake blood test. But CJ said that Sandman knew CJ's DNA wouldn't. So he wanted not only to save his son but eveyone who is normal. Of course this would also tick off his former breeder buddies. Yes he could have targeted them, but did he have access to their DNA? Maybe, I am sure he could have found something nasty to tie the DNA to to kill them.. but he decided to just interfere with their plans which I think hurts the cult more.

No I don't think it's a coincidence they both wanted her for something specific... the breeders wanted her dead... she interfered directly with their plans... the DNA junkies, who knows... but definately not a coincidence.

So 'Max' was basically the purpose of the research?

Well that seems to be what the Producers were hinting at.

My point is that that both groups were after the same thing.

Yes... Max.

Something in Max. I don't mean that they were only after the same girl, but that they were after the same thing Max was 'holding'.

I was also wondering about sandman, well about two things really. White said that he had "turned his back on everything the cult believed in...and left. Well their "BIG" thing was waiting for the metor and taking over the world, so he would have left because?? He disagreed with them about just allowing everyone without the correct genetic code to die? And Second what about why he left Manticore, was it because the Government "stepped in" and took over everything? Because if Sandman were wanting to create someone like Max to "Save the world", why would he just leave?, and according to Joshua leave in a hurry? Do you think he was afraid?

When putting the two 'left' together, it raises an interesting question: Did he plan to leave at one point all along? And if he did, what does it say?


Actually I think Joshua hinted to that in the second to the last episodes... "love among the runes" Where they are talking about the runes on Max's skin they were all talking about "why didn't he teach you how to read it? ... (then Joshua says) maybe he wanted to but he left in a hurry. Maybe if he had planned to leave all along something rushed him to leaving early????



And if we add the whole 'who's Renfro?' question(s), the two places he left may actually be three. Or even more.

Coincidence?




Said that way I don't think so.



And what if Renfro and her group were an earlier attempt to fight the breeding cult?

Actually I think Joshua hinted to that in the second to the last episodes... "love among the runes" Where they are talking about the runes on Max's skin they were all talking about "why didn't he teach you how to read it? ... (then Joshua says) maybe he wanted to but he left in a hurry. Maybe if he had planned to leave all along something rushed him to leaving early????

Said that way I don't think so.

My only question to this possibility, (which is an interesting thought), is "how would they fight?" They don't have any enhanced abilitys physically that Renfro showed... maybe they do, or maybe only some of them may... like that kid in the breeding cult with telepathic ability. But she didn't really show any enhanced ability... except maybe how to really get on someones nerves. But still an interesting thought.... I mean the transgenics were specialized too.... who knows maybe she was the office manager version of her group. Actually she wasn't even that... she really ran Manticore into the ground pretty fast. Lydecker was a great facilitys manager. But then Renfro was trying to run Manticore into the ground.

That leaves quite a lot of maybe's. And if Joshua was, indeed, Sandman...


True but then if he were Sandman it would further throw suspicion off of him.



So why did he leave?



I ment that I dont think that there is a coincidence that there may be two, three, or more other "groups" Sandman was the connection to the cult and Renfro. Even if we don't know what that connnection to Renfro is or even means. Could have been the writtings staffs way to keep notching up or ramping up what Max was to go against in future episodes


I love the 'except maybe how to really get on someones nerves'

Maybe the fight wasn't suppose to be physical.

True but then if he were Sandman it would further throw suspicion off of him.

I ment that I dont think that there is a coincidence that there may be two, three, or more other "groups"

Well everyone from Manticore had a way with turning a "one liner." Perhaps Renfro's ability was to bore and threaten those blessed with verbal Kung fu?

Exactly.

Did someone actually see Sandman?


I don't think anyone actually saw him... the producers said they were thinking of making it someone we had seen in passing, hiding in plain site.



I agree. But I meant that there was no coincidence in him leaving all of them. And I wonder why did he leave.


I have wondered that too. It's too easy to say he just got tired of them. It had to be something more specific... maybe unique about him. Something that drew him to these secret socities, and cults. Maybe there was a "plan" all along, and except for being rushed leaving Manticore, was just him following that plan. I think it could also be as simple as he was running for his life in each situation.



You know, if we're going with the verbal part, maybe it hints to her abilities.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%...verbal+ability+

I don't think anyone actually saw him... the producers said they were thinking of making it someone we had seen in passing, hiding in plain site.

Maybe there was a "plan" all along,

Wow! I never realized. Maybe that goes along with being genetically engineered... having a high verbal ability...

And we're back to one of the opening points

But here's another thing: Say that Sandman is someone we had seen. Did all the characters see all the characters?

As far as i can remember everyone who started first season who didn't make it to second season... and second season charactors that didn't didn't meet first season charactors....like Herbal didn't meet Joshua, or Alec. I think those are the only "regulars" that never met.. can you think of any others?

Exactly.

And it's back to 'Maybe the fight wasn't suppose to be physical.'

As far as i can remember everyone who started first season who didn't make it to second season... and second season charactors that didn't didn't meet first season charactors....like Herbal didn't meet Joshua, or Alec. I think those are the only "regulars" that never met.. can you think of any others?

Well as interesting as a verbal fight sounds in written form, I don't think that it would play well on the tv. Kind like to big football players having a slap fight. Just kind of lacks somethng. lol

I'll need to think about that. I'm trying to think if all characters which we saw on the same season also saw each other...



I will look too, maybe make a board like Logan made. The "Big Screen" version, and see if we find someone who we saw... we might be able to come up with a few possibilitys for Sandman at the very least.



I didn't mean a verbal fight I just meant that it wouldn't have been about physical power.

Lyric were you able to think of anyone else? I haven't been able to think of anyone else.

I haven't looked But! (and this is a fresh, I-just-thought-about-it, thought), how about starting a thread where we will try to decide who Sandman may be? That way, we can build the board you were talking about, have posters throwing ideas (because I don't know if you've noticed, but it's basically just you and me here ), etc. What do you say?

I did notice that... I think it sounds good to open it up. More minds can bring faster results. Not that I didn't enjoy our conversations. I will let you start the thread. Everyone around here knows you so well.

Oh, I'm still enjoying the conversations But as this is kind of Renfro thread, talking Sandman takes us off topic.


Your right this is a Renfro tropic not a Sandman one... it's easy to get distracted when your in a good conversation.



And it really doesn't matter who opens the thread. If you have an opening post in mind, go right ahead

Your right this is a Renfro tropic not a Sandman one... it's easy to get distracted when your in a good conversation.

By the way did you stop by the Logans poetry thread? What did you think? I am thinking of slowly adding more, and have a;sleft it open to others to leave poetry to.