by sweet and spicy
We're Over Thirty and Obsessed! Just like the title says!

Everyone is welcome to post on the OTOs, BUT keep in mind this is a thread for Adults!
How do you know if this is the thread for you?
- Are the kids finally in bed or at practice somewhere and you need a moment with other Roswell Adults?
- Did your kids leave the nest and you no longer have to fight for the computer?
- You have no kids and enjoy posting with other Adult Roswell fans?
- Are you a mature 'under 30'?
Then this is the thread for you


~ Poem by John aka Noseedough ~


Friendships are the best ships!
Our fun tips are the best quips,
and our pics...they rule the board
friendships are the best
we're definitely obsessed...
sometimes we may be hazy,
but we never do get stressed.
Some jump right in, don't be afraid
say what's on your mind
never fear...we all have strayed,
but fall right back in line.
We love you when you're different,
we love you when you're not,
we are the OTO's my friend,
the best that you have got!

THE PARTICIPANTS.....

Jan 6 Icestorm ~ California ~ Queen of Roswell Dreams /Princess of Music!
Jan 10 Ryal ~ California ~ King of Covina Lurkers R.I.P. Ryal (2009)
Jan 13 Settled ~ California~Queen Star Magnet/Princess GG
Jan 17 RoswellGirl67 ~ Virginia ~ Queen of Jason's Heart
Jan 21 Crushed ~ Oklahoma ~ Queen of MY computer!/Willing Slave to Max!
Jan 27 Covina Guy ~ California ~ King of Rosvina Spies!
Jan 27 Softie ~ UK, Sussex ~ Shiri's Prince Charming
Feb 02 Groundhog ~ Texas ~ King of Tech Support
Feb 12 Howdy Pez ~ Texas ~ Queen of Roswell Round Robin!
Feb 22 jero ~ Illinois ~ Queen of Campaigning
Mar 02 Spook ~ England ~ Queen of the Spookathons and Summaries!
Mar 08 Tasyfa ~ Canada ~ Queen of Erotica!
Mar 12 teetee ~ New Jersey ~ Queen of the Slaves to fanfic!
Mar 15 Tigereyes ~ Wisconsin ~ Queen of Hopeless Romantics
Mar 17 Silverfox ~ California ~ Queen of Max's Pants
Mar 18 Mrs. Bear ~ California ~ Queen of the Bears
Mar 18 guerinschick ~ Colorado
Mar 19 Podwatcher ~ Nebraska ~ Queen of MegaMax
April 6 Forrestal ~ Texas ~
April 11 Michelle in Yonkers ~NY~
Apr 12 LTL ~ Maryland ~ Queen of Oogy Lady/Swimmer Supreme!
Apr 20 Quinn ~ Vermont~ Queen of Organization
Apr 28 Britfan ~ England ~ Queen of the Fehrian picture hunt!
May 1 Rueben ~ California ~ Queen of Patience
May 5 Nana J ~ Washington ~ Queen Mother of the OTOs!
May 5 tabscoDreemin03 ~ Calgary
May 12 6throck ~ Washington ~ Queen of Animations!
May 13 CK ~ Kansas ~ King of Small Towns!
May 18 RoswellMouse ~ Virginia ~ Queen of Roswell Multitasking
May 18 Dommie ~ Missouri~ Queen of Getting Lost
May 20 WildB ~ Florida ~ Queen of Drool!
May 29 lilo666 ~ England ~
May 31 Brown Eyes ~ Indiana ~ King of Afternoon Delight
June 1 Thermuthis ~ Missouri ~ Queen of the 'Belles'
June 9 Mamakin ~ Oklahoma ~ Queen of Hope!
June 9 Moondragon ~ California ~ Queen of Fire Dragons/Official BF 'motherer'
June 21 Tekgirl ~ California ~ Queen of Typos
June 25 Shade of Bronze ~ California ~ Queen of the Countdown!
June 27 crystal505 ~ California
June 29 Lori "SASS" ~ Texas ~ Queen of the Unconventionals!
July 3 HeavyMetalQueen ~ Canada ~ Queen of the Fehr One's Music
July 9 Vicki ~ Nevada ~ Queen of LINKS!
July 10 Gooder ~ Wisconsin ~ King of Movie Trivia
July 11 Watcher ~ Ohio ~ King of poems/Slave to Liz/Shiri
July 31 ukspacie ~England~
Aug 06 Maxi ~ Sweden ~ Queen Of Reindeers And Snowflakes
Aug 10 Old_Candyfan ~ Illinois ~ Queen of the Fly-By!
Aug 12 Hipp ~ Wisconsin ~ Queen of Indecision!
Aug 19 Postman ~ Oulu, Finland ~ Royal Messenger!
Aug 24 cat8myhomework ~ Texas ~ Cat Queen!
Aug 27 Berengaria ~ Florida ~ Queen of Sunglasses
Sept 3 NICK WECHSLER ~ California ~ Hot Towel Boy
Sept 10 RPMDragon ~ Michigan
Sept 18 snorka ~ Israel
Sept 21 Hooked ~ California ~ Queen of Covina Behind the Scenes!
Sept 23 blue angel
Sept 27 Island Momma ~ Hawaii ~ Queen of Aloha/whispering palms
Oct 7 Blessed Child ~ Queen MB ~ OTO Jr. in Training
Oct 19 rox_mc ~ Mississippi ~ Queen of Archives!
Oct 23 Echo ~ Oregon ~ Queen of Dreams!
Oct 25 Vinity ~ North Carolina ~ Queen Vinnocence of the Whip!
Nov 6 Mr_Gandarium ~ New Hampshire ~ Court Jester
Nov 17 PPD ~ Michigan ~ King of the Morning Shift
Nov 24 Mavonne ~ Pennsylvania ~ Queen of Zan Fic!
Nov 26 di m ~ California
Nov 27 Thanette ~ New York ~ Calendar Lady & East Coast Campaign Princess
Nov 28 Iggybehr ~ Florida ~ Queen of the pic/links/Princess of songcaps!
Dec 01 Oceana ~ Ontario, Canada ~ Queen of Behr/Defender of Max!
Dec 12 ~*SparrowsLuv*~ ~ Nevada~ Queen of the nightshift!
Dec 15 behind the tree ~ Canada ~ King 'on' the Mountain
Dec 21 Bigspam ~ California ~ King of the Camera/Slave to Liz/Shiri
Dec 30 JASON BEHR ~ California ~ King of What Ever He Wants!
Dec 30 LuvBehr ~ Arizona ~ Queen of the Desert Temps!
Dec 31 CF ~ Massachusetts~ Queen of Crickets!


So pull up a comfy chair and tell us a little sumpin, sumpin bout yourself!


Didn't finish reading the old thread? You can find the OLD THREAD HERE.

Berry, thanks for posting the link to the trailer for Caprica. It looks intriguing. And James M looks great. Thanks for all the info on the show.

LT, Congrats on TPG's first step. How exciting! Did you son and DIL manage to videotape her second step? (I don't think parents manage to get first steps on tape very often - no warning But a second step...) …You went a tad over budget at Babies R Us? That’s not hard to do, especially when you’re buying for a grandchild.….My time setting on MB is all wonky. I keep trying to get it to post the right time for me, but I rarely can. I haven’t even checked if I need to do anything since we went back to standard time. But, if it says I posted at 2 am – your time – that would be 11 am my time which makes sense. I often post at that time.

Awww, Vicki, the kids are adorable. And your own personal “Dorothy Gale” looks like your clone – only shorter. She is getting so big. And you’re “little guy” isn’t so little anymore. I bet he loved his costume. You did a great job decorating your house for Halloween.

HMQ, I hope you’re feeling better today. ….As a teacher, I always hated the days after Halloween because the kids would come to school on a week-long sugar high from eating all of their Halloween loot. …Bummer that your Halloween candy was “censored” as to what you were allowed to eat, but your teeth are probably in better shape because of it. ….I’ll be watching the remake of V on Tuesday. Sci Fi (sic) has been rerunning the original mini-series, the sequel mini-series and the TV show. (I don’t remember the TV show.) If anyone else watched any of the original V, did you recognize a very young, pre-Friday the 13th Robert Eglund? …And also very young versions of Marc Singer & Andrew Prine. I’ve seen Marc Singer at Comic Con recently.

Nana, these days I microwave my broccoli too. When I took a microwave cooking class years ago (when they first became available for home use), they taught us to put the broccoli on a plate in a circle with the flowerettes pointing in to the middle of the circle. You do that because the stalks take longer to cook than the flowerettes and the broccoli will cook more evenly if you do this. I also add a few drops of water and cover the broccoli with wax paper to ensure even cooking. …Your friend is lucky to have you in her life. I was on “standard time clock patrol” too. I changed all of my Mom’s clocks for her.

SO47, is it just me or does that giant meatball look totally gross to anyone else?

Nosee, GH, & Vin

Well I do like meatballs (Swedish ones, Maxi ) but this looks like a coronary waiting to happen and you know what I'd say to the cook? "You made it, now eat it...every last piece of it"

Thanks for the new thread

Ber. thanks for all the info on Caprica, I am so into this. I have watched a bit of the orgial showbut got lost when that one doctor, was having that robot in his dreams, the one he created,( The blond girl). anyways I need to figure out how those robots tok over, & if that one robot girl, had her human/robot kid. that was the last eppisode I saw on t.v.But I can watch the shows now, I get the channels.



Tek, I remeber Eric Singer, he remeinded me( back in the 80's) a litle bit like Kevin Bacon, . Yeah so is he on this new show then? Gosh I hope I can understand this show, whenit first comes out, I am still trying to figure out that "Santuary" series. how that came of, ( in the begining).



I don't think my teeth are in great shpate really since I "grind them" during the nights & disability won't cover the $350.00 gadet I need to get, so for an exsample I woke up this morning & my back teeth have been bothering me all day.I'm such a silly person



I actaully went to the space channel lineup, last night( 1am ) & found that , this "movbie" was really a new "mini series", called the "The Lost Room". Man is it hard to follow. so I ended up taping the whole thing from 9pm-2:30am,



Oksay gota go rest up before taking the garbages out for the building, & I'm hack-coughing & nmy throat is killing me, time for another "Fisherman's Friend"



I forgot to say, thanks for the new thread & I love the title, & my answer to the title is, "Of course not".

Thank you for the new thread, Tekgirl

If you are thinking of going to CC next summer. BUY YOUR TICKETS NOW! They are almost sold out of 4 day memberships!

LTL - Yes. Did your son get TPG's steps on video? Watch out for the holiday decorations now that he's up and off to the races.

Lyric - tell me how you decided on your posting name. Since I spend a lot of time writing "lyrics" I am interested. Am currently working on a spiritual.

Spent most of the morning writing, then have been doing a bunch of different things. Worked a bit on gathering stuff from our church to send to Afghanistan. Packing and preparing the boxes takes time, and I expect to drag this over most of this week. But it will get done. Also need to make two sympathy cards.

HMQ - hope you feel better soon. No fun having a cough and sore throat. Usually means you are not feeling all that great, either.

Tek - thanks for the info about placing the broccoli with the stems outward. I, too, use a bit of water and cover it with a paper towel or something similar.

Looks like I'll have a lot of fun with the remote tonight, switching between Dancing With the Stars, Heroes, etc. And don't forget Castle at ten!

Dinnertime.

Hey guys

I have a sore throat I better not be getting sick!

Truck mirrors are ordered. One got broken and for some odd reason my truck had the wrong mirrors to start with, so I'm replacing them with hauling mirrors. It took stupid Ford Service 2 days to figure out which mirrors I don't know why that should have been hard It's the only 3/4 ton superduty diesel I've ever seen with little mirrors. They ended up taking a mirror off one of they're used trucks and put it on mine to make sure it would work. They are also charging me an ungoshly amount of money.

Going off back thread to to check out Vicki's monsters and Caprica trailer link.

Vicki~ WOW you went to lots of effort. Looks awesome

Caprica looks great also.

OK watched last 20 minutes of Heroes WTF is going on. Is Sylar good or bad and where's Nathan if Sylar is back?

I guess you can say that it's a play of a sort on my real name. And it holds the same basic meaning.

Tek thanks for the new thread!

Wild I will watch Heroes tomorrow and get comments to the thread then.
I'm just fighting to stay awake right now.

to one and all.

Will tivo Castle. I just can't seem to stay awake

I was out at the opera tonight and Mr. LTL taped Heroes for me, but somehow the VCR was not on Channel 3, and all we've got is static. Rats. I'll have to look for it elsewhere.

Vin: Even though I haven't seen this week's ep, I was already confused about Nathan/Skylar/Matt.

Thanks for the new thread, Tek. Great title, too.

NanaJ: No video yet of TPG walking. And wouldn't you know, we won't be going down there again until Nov. 15.

Vicki: Your "babies" are so big -- great costumes!

Bere thanks for the info about Caprica. I think I'll give it a try, even though I never got into the current iteration of BSG.

Tekkie thanks for the new thread.

Later....

All.

Sorry, I'm too busy to stop and catch up I should be in the lab right now, but decided I had to eat lunch before I got too hungry and had an accident

Saw the long list of OTOs past... It's too long a list I know Ice uses Facebook, so I catch up with her there on the odd occasion.

I had good news today There's money to extend my contract for a further 8 months So the pressure is off my grant for a while - I can take my time with it, and I'll stay employed for a little while longer

Better go..

A quick

Spook - that's excellent news on getting a few more month on your contract. What a relief!

Good to hear it

That's wonderful, Spook! Always nice when you have some time to get your plans in order.

Morning guys

Hey Lyric it is a pretty name

The trick to the latest BSG was drugs, lot of drugs No really even tho it was sometimes almost painful to watch. I'm glad I did. The show had some amazing things to say and oddly, while I was prepared for a hopeless ending it ended with a hopeful note and I was pleasantly surprised. I've been thinking about rewatching the entire series. It did have some amazing actors.

I get the feel Caprica will be lighter in tone but oddly, as it's events that lead to the Cylon War you know it's HAS to end in a dark place. So look at it as BSG dark moving to {maybe}light. Caprica lighter leading to very dark. Still it look awesome.


CONGRATS

and in other Brit news Tennant in US pilot!! Looks like we'll still be getting our Tennant fix.

LT sorry your VCR didn't work. I don't even have one hooked up anymore. I couldn't survive without our DVR. DV and I were laughing last night. We have one TV just on a tuner and we never use it cause you can't freeze and go back and re-watch stuff. Normal here, then gone TV is frustrating now. We're going to add a DVR to that TV also.

Okay Nathan is dead, becasue Skylar took his "face" remeber a month ago on an eppy.& he got barred, so okay nathan is dead, & skyler was trying to get back "his body" by that cop, remeber he was in his mind, but since they screwed around with the back to past & to the present, he is now alive & well, & looks like in this last eppisode( last night) that the doctor is dead & well will be brought back to life" because of Hiro.



To tell you the truth I was so damn mad & confused as heck about that eppisode I was thinking of giving this show "one more try", I am tired of seeing the Hiro going back & forth & then back agian in the past,. like whf ? I get confused easily to begin with,:



But unless Hiro goes back in time ( agian) to when Skyar took "face shapes"& Nathan was tied in that chair. then he would be alive agian, but only that would put us all back on track agian.





Have I confused you lot yet?



Congrads, gosh that is so wonderful, gosh you;ll have to celebrate later on tonight with a glass of wine & a nice dinner eh?

Oh, Vin, great news about David Tennant being in a comedy pilot for NBC. Be really weird to hear him with an American accent though.



And speaking of Scifi, the series V starts tonight.

Thanks for all complients on the my little one.

SPOOK! That is great news!

Spook glad to hear you got an extension. Good luck on the grant.

Planning on watching V tonight. It looks pretty good. I guess we know who really got blown up on Lost. And it took me a while to recognize Morena Baccarin from Firefly and Serenity.

Later....

Are we on Yahoo for RVP tonight, or still on MSN? And what ep are we on?

Congrats, Spook! That is great news!

Just curious- I haven't gotten around to watching BSG yet. Should I wait until I've seen the whole series to watch Caprica, or will I still enjoy it? I find that prequils should usually be watched after the original of something to really appreciate them.

Really? Why? I can see why you would want to see the whole series of Battlestar Gallactica if this was a sequel but since everything happening in Caprica is the history of what went before BSG, I don't see why a knowledge of BSG is necessary. Of course, I guess its interesting to know how everything played out in the end...will give another layer to things you see on Caprica. But I'm one of those that started watching BSG, got appalled at how dark it got. Guess I bonded with one of the characters too much and didn't like how she was treated. So, gave it up. I may go back and finish out watching it someday. But probably not before Caprica comes along.

But that's just my take on it.

Spook congrats on the extra months of pay and being able to take your time writing the grant

Vinity, LTL, Groundhog, vilandragirl, Berengaria, HMQ and any missed

I won't be watching 'V' though I like the cast. I never liked the other 'V' show.

Despite being tired last night I didn't get much sleep. Long story short, the EMTs were here and it was embarrassing when the sirens came down the street. And yes, I am okay. I just don't want a repeat of last night when my asthma caused a panic attack and I couldn't breathe.

WOW, the beginning of V has some amazing camera work. Some unusal choices for TV show. So far it's good.




I don't think you have to watch BSG to watch Caprica. As B said, it might make it richer but I think it's got a very different feel. As far as BSG, I hated the orginal so I didn't get into the series till first season {after the mini} BSG is difficult and at times is very hard, and does take a wrong turn or two but much of it is brilliant TV.

V was very good. I really liked it. Had lots and lots so say and elements to expand. It's not as edgy and raw as BSG. At least at this point everyone is in state of black or white as far as bad/guys good/guys . They are setting up the general human race as the stay of gray. What would you sell out for? Peace, health, fame, beauty knowledge. Doing a good job to show how easily a good portion of the human race is easily led and fooled by pretty words. I think they were using images of the young people joining the V people very similar of the young people who first joined in the Hitler forces

TPG steps out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4QuUpIn12M

I liked V -- a lot! Elizabeth Mitchell gives it extra texture.

GH: It took me a while to recognize Morena in her short hairdo, too. But that sultry voice is pretty memorable.

Vin: ITA on BSG -- on its being brilliant TV and about needing anti-depressants to get through it.

news about David Tennant.

How are you feeling?

Berengaria: I had the same reaction to BSG, probably because of the same character (B.....?) and the general darkness, but I fell into it again at the end of S2, and it's definitely worthwhile to go back and try again.

Spook: Congrats on the extension! Phew!! More time for even more money to appear. I'm really happy for you.

Lori: That's scary! Glad you're feeling better.

vilandra girl: I think we're on Part 2 of The Gendarium Chronicles -- We Are Family.

OMG thank heavens you are OK. Panic attacks are very scary and not being able to breath is awful also. Take care {{{{{healingvibes}}}}

My favorite character on BSG was Sharon (Grace Park) . Liked her storyline for quite a while and then they got so abusive to her that it just wasn't enjoyable for me to watch.

But with some distance now, I could probably take another look...I would like to know how it all turned out.

I watched "V", thought it was okay, but realy wasn't a fan of the first one, just thought this version would be a bit better, so I will give it another try next week, but doubt I'll stick with it.



I watched the whole mini-series of that show I taped finally."The Lost Room". I am not confused as I was the other night when I watched only 1/2 of the show.

I think this is gonna be a regular show on Space.

anyone else watch it?

okay hack-coughing so I've gotta take my precviad now, & hit the thay so I can go to work tommorrow.

HMQ~ I think the Lost Room was only a 6 part mini series. It didn't get picked up as a show.

LT~ Brilliant first steps. Everyone is SO happy that is such a cool time. Brings back memories

LT~ I really liked V a lot. I'm kind of excited and surprised I'm excited. I don't recall liking the original. I wonder if this will effect Alien Nation remake Tim Minear was planning for Sciffy. I think he was working on some similar themes.....well, with lots more death cause it's Tim Minear.

Grace Parks was awesome but they were hard on many of her characters. Course, they were pretty much hard on everyone. The only one I wanted to really pinch the head off of was Lee Adama, Duella and I did hate Cally. I adored Starbuck till the end. {brilliant move making her female} and of course, I really love Trisha Helfer. That woman can look SO different it's pretty amazing. So many great actors.

LTL - I watched the first steps! Very cool! How exciting.

Lori - So glad you are better. Scary. Darn. You don't need all this "excitement"!

Vin - Don't get sick.

Spook - Congrats on getting some breathing room.

Snippets of Adam's songs on the yet to be new album are out, and, fortunately, some of them sound interesting. I think it will do well. I about cracked up at one reviewer's comment that he liked the song For your Entertainment but sure hoped he never heard his mother singing it! You'll have to listen to the lyrics to appreciate this.

and speaking of lyrics - Lyric, thank you for explaining your posting name.

I, too, enjoed "V". Definitely will watch it again.

Vinity - Thank you

Nana J - No problem

Hi all!

I just watched V. I loved the original version and this one had a really good start too.

I wonder what the rating for V was last night? It's doesn't have lots of competition in the time slot. I bet the audience grows rather than goes down like most new shows. I think it has appeal for more than just sci fi people. Conspiracy theorist will like it also.

Pissed off at Ford service. 2 days to figure out what part to order. Parts {2 mirrors} $400, labor over $350. I drop truck off and I'm told it will take 2 hours!! So I say "You get nearly $200 an hour?" They say "Of course not, it's billed for 3 hours each mirror in case there is trouble getting them in" So how is charging 3 times the hourly rate NOT getting $200 an hour? They have lost my business! If car companies want to know why they are failing THIS kind of **** is WHY!!

Rating for V from Media Week:

Highly promoted V got off to a positive start on ABC with a second-place 8.7 rating/14 share in the overnights from 8-9 p.m.

Lori Major to you

That's good hope it stays high.

I submitted a photo of my little one in her Halloween costume to a Twitter contest that TheWB.com was doing and it won!

Here is the list of winners!


EDITED"

Syfy just tweeted this: Syfy First footage of James Marsters in Caprica: http://bit.ly/21FAoZ

Vicki that is so cool congrats

Very that so many liked V. I watched the first one, though I wasn't a huge fan, but so far this one looks really good.

Vicki: Thanks for posting the overnights, and congrats on your Halloween star!

Vin: That's highway robbery for your mirrors. I hate dealer service shops, and if my current favorite (non-dealer) mechanic ever goes out of business, I'll be

Berengaria: Thought I posted this last night, but apparently not. Grace Park was the one I was thinking about, too; her pilot name was Boomer.

NanaJ, Vin: Glad you enjoyed TPG. We're so proud.

Lori: Hope you're feeling better today.

HMQ, lyric, WildB, Maxi!

Those of you who have asthma might be interested in this article: A Breathing Technique Offers Help for People With Asthma

I like Elizabeth's texture also. V was very good. I'll stick with it. The red color of the letter V on the credits makes you think of the vampire blood drink on that HBO program. I was told ABC only ordered four episodes of V initially to see how it does because it is expensive to produce. That would probably mean a big break after the first four before the rest could be shown. Don't know if that's true or not.

Cute video of the first steps.

Later....

LT~ Really interesting article about breathing. It mirrors what my PT guy was saying when I exercise. I was hyperventilating and could barely keep up. He had me slow my breathing and push thru and suddenly I could do 3 times longer on the elliptical if I control my breathing. Also, I do notice if I breath thru my nose I don't get the snap crackle pop sound from my lungs. That is very irritating.

Off to hot bath and bed. Slept poorly last night.

LTL thanks for the info on asthma. It is something I have tried before. I do it when I walk, but at night I always end up coughing my head off. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. I'm going to ask about it tomorrow when I see my Doc.

Vinity I hate the service area of car dealerships. I would rather take my car to a reliable mechanic of my choice than an over priced car dealer mechanic. Too many bad experiences.

Vicki congrats to 'Dorothy' on winning the contest

Nana, Groundhog, lyric, HMQ, Beregaria

Sorry I missed the RVP again last night. I fell asleep on the sofa But considering how my night went the night before I needed the sleep.

Let's hope that since so many of us like V we haven't jinxed it!

Glad I listened to Adam's snippets of his new album yesterday, because they seem to be off the internet today, due to Sony copyright.

Looking forward to the comedy shows tonight as I need something light. Had a very upsetting call from my half-brother who is having a terrible time. Life is harder for some of us than others, and he is struggling. He has more problems than I can handle. All I can do is listen. But it tore me apart. I need diversion of comedy TV tonight! A sit in bed with bankees and suck my thumb sort of night.

Gonna dive for the covers.

Congrats on the win on your daughter's Dorothy costume, Vicki.

Ain't that the truth! A group of Roswell fans liking a show is probably not a good sign

Vicki, congrats on your daughter winning the contest!!

Ain't it the truth

Nana~ Hope your half-brother's life gets easier.

Hi there OTOs!

Hi Vicki!

Congrats to your daughter ... saw someone else familiar among those winners also

Since shows I don't like seem to fare much better ... I hate 'V' ...